#131  
Old 09-19-2019, 01:57 AM
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Oh the amount of discussions we would avoid if the rating system would be open for investigation. Like in chess for example.

What is the history of pdga ratings, when was it incorporated, by who, and why are the formulas secret?
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  #132  
Old 09-19-2019, 02:15 AM
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If only there was somebody that posts here that knew the who/what/when/where/why of the ratings system. Hmmm...




*paging Mr Kennedy*


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Last edited by brutalbrutus; 09-19-2019 at 02:17 AM.
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  #133  
Old 09-19-2019, 05:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jouni View Post
Oh the amount of discussions we would avoid if the rating system would be open for investigation. Like in chess for example.

What is the history of pdga ratings, when was it incorporated, by who, and why are the formulas secret?
Oh wow...if I were the PDGA I would never make those formulas known. As frustrating as it is for players I would never want to open myself to that kind of anal-retentive criticism from the self proclaimed "experts" on all things ratings. My brain hurts imagining all the wailing and gnashing of teeth from players crying about the perceived persecution on how the system intentionally screws them personally over. I can hear the now..."OMG I'LL NEVER MAKE IT OUT OF MA_ TO MA_ BECAUSE THE PDGA IS OUT TO GET ME"

Yeah, hard pass on that one lol

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  #134  
Old 09-19-2019, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Think of it this way: Your opponents are everyone who played the same course in the same round. The ratings take into account not just all those opponents ratings and whether you won/lost/or tied against each one of them, but also by how much.
I understand, but you're not really playing the others, you're playing against the course.

I'm not trying to start anything nor to change the world of DG, just commenting that it's strange and IMHO a flaw....
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  #135  
Old 09-19-2019, 10:30 AM
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Originally Posted by SD86 View Post
I understand, but you're not really playing the others, you're playing against the course.

I'm not trying to start anything nor to change the world of DG, just commenting that it's strange and IMHO a flaw....
I'm a chessplayer so I understand what you're talking about comparing ratings.

I think the way to think of it is this: The difficulty of playing a course on any given day is being adjusted based on how the field actually plays it that day. By the time 100 or more players have played 18 holes, we have a pretty good statistical idea of how difficult it was that day.

So let's say Paul shoots a -10 in round one when it's sunny and there's no wind and there are lots of players shooting around that score. There are several top competitors shooting -9s, -8s, maybe even a -11 or -12.

Then in round two, the wind is fierce and it's raining. Paul shoots a -10 but the rest of the field is struggling. The rating system is going to rate Paul's round two higher because it assumes that his -10 is harder to achieve in that round. The evidence for that is in the scores of his competitors.

At least I think that's how the rating system works. And if it does, I think it makes sense to me. I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got this wrong.

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  #136  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD86 View Post
I understand, but you're not really playing the others, you're playing against the course.

I'm not trying to start anything nor to change the world of DG, just commenting that it's strange and IMHO a flaw....
If you play against the course, and 30 people in a 31 man field beat you... did you win the tournament if you shot your best round ever? You did not. The rating is measuring how you compete within the field. You keep calling it a flaw - but it isn't. The "flaw" is in the fact that we don't have an effective way of measuring the impact of a course on a player in such a way that we can directly measure a player's skill against a course in a generalizable way.

Right now we can't even agree on what it means to have a good hole, much less what it means to purely use a course to adequately measure a player.

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  #137  
Old 09-19-2019, 11:55 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueMonk View Post
I'm a chessplayer so I understand what you're talking about comparing ratings.

I think the way to think of it is this: The difficulty of playing a course on any given day is being adjusted based on how the field actually plays it that day. By the time 100 or more players have played 18 holes, we have a pretty good statistical idea of how difficult it was that day.

So let's say Paul shoots a -10 in round one when it's sunny and there's no wind and there are lots of players shooting around that score. There are several top competitors shooting -9s, -8s, maybe even a -11 or -12.

Then in round two, the wind is fierce and it's raining. Paul shoots a -10 but the rest of the field is struggling. The rating system is going to rate Paul's round two higher because it assumes that his -10 is harder to achieve in that round. The evidence for that is in the scores of his competitors.

At least I think that's how the rating system works. And if it does, I think it makes sense to me. I'm sure someone will correct me if I've got this wrong.
You've got it 100% right.

Ratings are measuring players against the field. Courses are a variable in that equation, not a constant. That's the thing some folks can't wrap their heads around. They want the course(s) to be a constant.
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  #138  
Old 09-19-2019, 12:19 PM
uncle pennybags uncle pennybags is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
You've got it 100% right.

Ratings are measuring players against the field. Courses are a variable in that equation, not a constant. That's the thing some folks can't wrap their heads around. They want the course(s) to be a constant.
I think that people are trying to split hairs. They want the course to be a constant since it doesn't change, as in everyone is throwing from the same tee pad to the same basket through the same obstacles. Environmental conditions become the variable. The problem is quantifying that in a meaningful and fair way, which I don't think is possible. Especially since we can't really agree on how to define par.
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  #139  
Old 09-19-2019, 03:13 PM
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I know I have some old posts around here about rating systems, but as Chess rating systems were mentioned, I thought I would chime in a bit.

One key difference between the rating systems used for games like Chess and the PDGA system is that one is a 'player' rating system, and the other is a 'round' rating system.

Player rating systems like Elo (chess) or TrueSkill are typically used for 1v1 competitions, but actually TrueSkill (among others) can be used for group or even team-based competitions too. However one really important point about these is they revolve around win/loss ratios. i.e. Behind the scenes, the rating difference between any two players dictates the percentage chance that one player beats the other. It would be much easier to implement a system like this in disc golf if we only cared about whether player A beat player B, and totally ignored the question of "by how much?". The second big feature of player rating systems is that they also behind-the-scenes include an assessment of confidence in rating. i.e. How confident am I that player A's rating is 'correct'? The more confident (i.e. due to previous number of matches) I am in a particular players' rating, the more weight that particular value has in adjusting the ratings of participants after any match.

By contrast, in a 'round' rating system, we're really interested in the actual projected round scores of players, rather than simply what percentage of the time would they beat some other player. With a big field of players, we get a ton more data than simply a rank-ordered list of who beat who, but it's also extremely difficult to sort out what's valuable/useful information because of all of the myriad of variables involved (e.g. the course, the participant pool, etc.). The PDGA system also does not include any kind of measurement of how confident it is in a players' rating (i.e. all 'propagators' are treated equally in terms of the value of their round data).

Finally, one (psychological) consideration that I think rating system designers underestimate is accuracy vs (upward) progression. Actually, most players don't really like 'true' rating systems, because of how rapidly they plateau a players' 'rank'. i.e. Players generally want to always see some kind of upward progression in their rating/ranking, yet rating systems are built around locking in on a stable and accurate depiction of a players' skill. In disc golf terms, consider that in the PDGA system, 90% of your rounds (once you have a few rated rounds in your rating already) will come in within +/- 30 rating points of your own rating. e.g. If you're a 950-rated golfer, and you throw a 980-rated round (or a 920-rated round), that could still simply be you performing at your 'correct' skill level. So a more 'true' player rating system might simply be to call both of those rounds a '9'. This is why rating system scales such as TrueSkill typically run 1-25 (i.e. a very small number of possible 'steps' between rating minimums and maximums).

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  #140  
Old 09-19-2019, 04:00 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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True or false? 2 >>separate<< divisions: one filled with 800 rated players, the other filled with 1000 rated players. Both shoot the same scores. The division with the 1000 rated players will have higher ratings.
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