#1  
Old 06-07-2015, 11:16 PM
timg's Avatar
timg timg is offline
*Administrator*
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Cortland, NY
Years Playing: 17.4
Courses Played: 257
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 9,922
Niced 880 Times in 286 Posts
Default Back on the Road Again - Tour Stop #6 (Sacramento, CA)



Tour Stop #6

Sacramento, CA
Sunrise Showdown
"A week off, kinda"

After leaving Monterey we headed to our friend Burbee's house to relax and do some minor repairs on the RV. He lives in Lakeport, CA the home of Steady Ed Headrick.

On Tuesday, we headed to the Dynamic Two Disc Challenge at the Black Mountain ball golf/disc golf course. I vended while Synthya played. She said it was a beautiful course and having a cart made for an easier day. On Thursday I taught a free clinic at Highland Hills disc golf course and then on Friday he took us to see his new ball/disc golf course. It sits at the base of an old volcano. When it opens, it will be a destination.

We also started to sell off my collection of discs and gear on disc golf collector's exchange. I have been posting daily. I am finally letting go of my gems that I have held onto for years. I want to buy a house, so goodbye old discs.

On Sunday Burbee and I drove up to Sacramento and played in the Sunrise Showdown at Drew Gibson's new ball/disc golf course. Fellow teammate Emil Dahlgren and I tied for first shooting the exact same scores 51, 51 for a -14 total. We decided to call it a tie and we walked away with $500 each. I liked the course and had fun, thanks Drew. Also thanks to Burbee for taking me and letting us stay at his house for a week. Those little repairs were needed!



Now I could keep going on in this diary style, but I don't want to bore you. I would like to have a positive discussion on some interesting disc golf topics. First topic will be course design.

I have seen many beautiful and fun courses to play. I also understand that people with much more experience than me have put much thought, creativity, and effort into designing courses. I would like to thank all people who have given there sweat, time, and money to design and install courses that I had the privilege of playing. I understand that it is mostly volunteers and that most have a job and or a family. So thank you.

That being said I would like to have intelligent conversation to stimulate my brain, hear others opinions, and help the design of courses worldwide to evolve.


Question #1
How can we in this sport design courses that are fun, challenging, and that reward or penalize the player based on how far they were from the course designers intended shot fairly?
Sponsored Links
  #2  
Old 06-08-2015, 10:36 AM
jchoate7's Avatar
jchoate7 jchoate7 is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Harrisburg, PA
Years Playing: 7.4
Courses Played: 64
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 663
Niced 17 Times in 9 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by timg View Post
Question #1
How can we in this sport design courses that are fun, challenging, and that reward or penalize the player based on how far they were from the course designers intended shot fairly?
There are courses out there that do this already, unfortunately not many of them are on the National Tour. The courses that come to mind (that I have played) are Nockamixon, and Iron Hill. What I like most about these courses are that on the par 4s and 5s the tee shots are placement shots. Most of the time there is no reward for throwing a 500ft bomb but instead you need a tight 350-400ft shot to set up your next. I'm going to tick some people off with my next statement but I think that although Iron Hill and Nockamixon do a great job of providing these shots there are sometimes holes that are too tight (Hole 17 at Iron Hill for example). Sometimes its a crap shoot hitting a line there and its just throw and pray. I will say however that both of these courses punish you for getting off the fairway which is what I love about the design at both of these courses. Another thing I like is the minimal amount of OB and mandos that are at these courses. In my opinion a mando is bad course design, its just a gimmick to force you to throw the designers intended line rather than the course naturally punish you for throwing not the intended line. I know that mandos are required for safety and it's a necessary thing in disc golf design but some designers rely to heavily on them rather than design a good course.
  #3  
Old 06-09-2015, 07:38 PM
williamlbird williamlbird is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Years Playing: 7.7
Courses Played: 22
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1
Niced 0 Times in 0 Posts
Default Birdman

I'm 62 years old and have been playing a couple of years now. I started tournament play a year ago and have played in 5 tournaments. Having played ball golf for 40 years I have noticed a problem in attracting the "seniors" to disc golf. There are a lot of courses designed for the young guys who throw 400+ which is a distinct disadvantage for the old guys (and girls). The tournaments allow us to use the shorter tee boxes but that isn't quite enough. Ball golf courses have 3-4 sets of tees for the advanced players down through the seniors and/or ladies tees. I know it is costly to install 18 or more tee boxes, however, the course designers could layout, on paper at least, a hole design where the seniors and beginners would have a place to tee up that would make the course more enjoyable. I realize the senior players are competing against each other from the same tee boxes regardless of the length of the hole, but isn't the point of the game to have fun? Since there isn't any handicapping in the game, an easy fix when playing against the better players is to use different tee boxes. That way the drives would end up in the approximate same area which would make the younger vs. older players more competitive.
  #4  
Old 06-13-2015, 01:09 AM
Magicweed Magicweed is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Concord, NH
Years Playing: 6.5
Courses Played: 35
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 698
Niced 3 Times in 3 Posts
Default

I fully support the idea of multiple teepads that still fall within the original design of the hole. While the gold tee might require a disc to fly 400ft before finishing left around a bend, the white tees could be situated on the right side of the fairway, closer to the bend and still maintain the intended line. Where I feel we can impact risk and reward is in the "layering" at the edges of the intended fairway. With selective trimming of trees and shrubs, we can create a "rough" similar to ball golf, where you still have the opportunity to make a good shot, but line selection would be less than optimal and could impact disc selection. Safe placement shots reward you with open approaches that give you an opportunity for birdie, but an easy par. If you throw too far, or too tight to the edge of the fairway, you may make the birdie much easier, but the risk of having to scramble for par becomes much higher. I have played a number of courses where a great shot was rewarded with a birdie, but the brush and trees off the fairway made getting up and down from a bad shot nearly impossible. The longer the hole, the less enjoyable this kind of situation is.

I'd like to see larger layouts with long par 3s, more par 4s and 5s, well defined fairways that can incorporate multiple shot styles (each with benefits and drawbacks), multiple teepads designed for different rating ranges (white, blue, gold), multiple pin positions (within the same green area so they can impact shot placement or approach style) and a purposeful "rough" that can hinder your progression toward the basket but be fair. Quite the wish list, considering designs like this would require a lot more acreage than current courses.
  #5  
Old 06-13-2015, 11:12 AM
teemkey's Avatar
teemkey teemkey is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Courses Played: 39
Posts: 2,531
Niced 505 Times in 233 Posts
Default

I agree with the comments above. It is important for course designers to consider player demographics other than 16-40 year old males. Women, young juniors, and older players want to have fun too.

It is interesting to note that sometimes a longer hole can cater to shorter throwers by providing lower-risk landing zones between higher-risk landing zones.
  #6  
Old 06-14-2015, 11:48 AM
teemkey's Avatar
teemkey teemkey is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Hillsboro, OR
Courses Played: 39
Posts: 2,531
Niced 505 Times in 233 Posts
Default

After watching some BSF footage, another suggestion occurred to me: placement of multiple tee pads. The usual placement is to place the shorter pad directly in front of the longer pad. Milo has a few holes where the shorter pad is well off to the side, and presents a very different driving line for the hole. This, as well as the holes that offer different elevation challenges between their pads, are some of the reasons Milo is a destination course for players of all skill levels.
  #7  
Old 06-14-2015, 12:10 PM
Aim For The Chains's Avatar
Aim For The Chains Aim For The Chains is offline
FROLF OFF!
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MINNESOTA
Years Playing: 11.4
Courses Played: 134
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 17,068
Niced 1,098 Times in 739 Posts
Default

We need to define what is fair.

To me that would mean there is very little luck or chance involved and clear replicatable line to the basket which a disc is designed to fly.

Distance is killing the fun factor for many normal players. It is no fun to play holes stretching 400'+ that require 2 drives to get to the basket and very little shot shaping. With the difference in skill at the top level vs average players there needs to be two thoughts or ways to course design. Professional/championship and recreational/leisure layouts with proper pars. "Pro" level need more par 2's and tighter forced lines which make you shape different shots. Too often throwing far brings in a significant advanatge in how you can go over or around otherwise designed obstacles. Shortening some of those holes IMO would actually help tighten some of the gaps to hit.

Hole 1 at the USDGC (i think it is)always suprises me how many pros and the like dont just park it. IMO thats good and entertaining disc golf.
  #8  
Old 06-14-2015, 09:43 PM
Cgkdisc's Avatar
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Twin Cities
Years Playing: 30.6
Courses Played: 692
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 12,218
Niced 1,563 Times in 712 Posts
Default

Hole 1 is barely good enough to not be a par 2 because players' names are announced each round. That probably adds 0.2 to the scoring average.
  #9  
Old 06-14-2015, 11:18 PM
Aim For The Chains's Avatar
Aim For The Chains Aim For The Chains is offline
FROLF OFF!
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: MINNESOTA
Years Playing: 11.4
Courses Played: 134
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 17,068
Niced 1,098 Times in 739 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Hole 1 is barely good enough to not be a par 2 because players' names are announced each round. That probably adds 0.2 to the scoring average.
for us laymen, what does that exactly mean? I would love to see it as a par 2 but not sure that is what you are saying and nor was I but great example outside of my post combining both concepts.
 

  #10  
Old 06-15-2015, 07:30 AM
bnbanbury bnbanbury is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: richmond,va/ north east, md
Courses Played: 80
Posts: 827
Niced 267 Times in 102 Posts
Default

IMO heavily wooded courses with clear, defined fairways are the best way to achieve this. Iron Hill is my favorite course for this reason. You dont have to throw 450' to score well there and all the tees are inside the wood line eliminating the giant up-and-over hyzers that plague moderately wooded courses with open tees. It tests a golfers ability to hit lines without resorting to plinko holes with tiny trees in the fairway.

You can't eliminate all the bounces and kicks that people sometimes get when they miss the intended line without doing something ridiculous. The triple mando hole 7 at USDGC certainly is a hole where there is almost no luck involved and you have to throw it to one spot or be penalized but i also think it is a terrible hole.
Closed Thread
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Back on the Road Again - Tour Stop #14 (Jackson, MS) timg Back on the Road Again w/ Dave Feldberg 5 11-29-2015 11:58 AM
Back on the Road Again - Tour Stop #11 (Ledgestone) timg Back on the Road Again w/ Dave Feldberg 11 09-16-2015 02:05 PM
Back on the Road Again - Tour Stop #10 (Back in the States) timg Back on the Road Again w/ Dave Feldberg 3 08-21-2015 09:15 PM
Back on the Road Again - Tour Stop #8 (Leicester, MA) timg Back on the Road Again w/ Dave Feldberg 13 07-15-2015 09:59 PM
Back on the Road Again - Tour Stop #5 (Monterey, CA) timg Back on the Road Again w/ Dave Feldberg 3 06-05-2015 10:08 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.