#121  
Old 09-25-2017, 03:44 PM
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ejvogie ejvogie is offline
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Originally Posted by tbird888 View Post
When you stop condescending women, you begin to change the culture and start fixing those issues.
Does this mean I have to quit telling your mom to make me sammiches?
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  #122  
Old 09-25-2017, 03:46 PM
bhadella bhadella is offline
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Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
I find it unfortunate, yet slightly amusing how conversations online go. This one has covered a gambit of topics... Very few of which (I find) relevant to this particular circumstance. Since I am not qualified to speak on behalf of most of those topics, I will provide my perspective from a business and marketing standpoint.

Discraft is, in fact, a business. I'm sure they have multiple goals we're not aware of tied to their business plans... That said, I guarantee one of those goals is revenue generation. So, from that perspective, Elaine was an employee of Discraft, just like (you) and I are employees of our companies.

Side Note: My personal opinion of Elaine is irrelevant to this topic, but I appreciate what she has done for the sport of disc golf and more specifically the impact she has had on the growth of the FPO division.

Having said that, (good) businesses make business decisions based on available data and think beyond the moment right in front of their faces. For example, if I were in part of Discraft's marketing function, I would look at:
> Elaine's current "brand" recognition among active golfers
> Elaine's recent tournament activity & winnings
> Elaine's future plans for tournament participation, potential travel, and personal revenue generation from event winnings.
> Does Elaine compete regionally, nationally, or internationally? What is her "shelf life" for continuing to compete at a high level?

With those metrics in mind, it becomes a little clearer why she does not have a signature disc now. Should she have been awarded a signature disc from back in the day when she was winning world championships? Maybe, that's not really my place to say... But, my opinion is yes.

At this point, Elaine is in a similar situation as Ken Climo. They are both still tremendous ambassadors for the sport, but not as marketable as they once were to current & future target markets. This might be unfortunate, but it's just business, not personal. And, everyone eventually gets replaced by a younger version eventually, it just happens much more quickly in professional sports.

Going back to the point of Elaine being an employee of Discraft... A signature disc would have had multiple business impacts. These two would be top of my mind if I were part of their marketing function.

1. Much like other professional athletes that sell their individual brand through apparel (jerseys, hats, shoes, etc.), a disc that contains the company logo and personal signature series have licensing complications. These cost Discraft money that lands in Elaine's pocket. Good for Elaine, and only good for Discraft is her affiliation with a particular mold increases unit sales.
* How much would that affiliation increase sales? 5%, 25%, 100%?

2. If Elaine uses a popular mold that already sells well, the Comet for example, then Discraft is basically handing her money for a disc that already sells. I think someone mentioned the Nate Doss Ti Buzzz a little while ago... So, that would not really be a good business decision for Discraft. Additionally, if they have another (nationally) touring Pro, like MJ, that uses the Comet and has higher brand recognition among a demographic that makes up a larger portion of current customers & prospects, then they really should be using his name to market to that group over Elaine's...

Last note, on Val... This is complete conjecture. But, I would assume part of her negotiations to come over to Discraft included a signature series disc. Us normal folks would consider that a signing bonus, like when we start a new job and are negotiating salary, benefits, vacation, etc. They already know Val already has an established brand, tours, and wins, so it is a safe investment on their part...
Elaine finished 10th in FPO this year at Worlds. And won Pro Masters. And is in the top 10 for cash winnings this year. She's still very, very good.

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  #123  
Old 09-25-2017, 04:48 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by tbird888 View Post
When you stop condescending women, you begin to change the culture and start fixing those issues.
I don't disagree, in fact I agree, I'm not sure that mansplaining gets it done though. Perhaps it would be better to say, "knock off the sexism." But then you have to prove that there is indeed sexism. Mansplain is so much easier.

Again, I understand what mansplaining is supposed to do, it's pretty clear it doesn't accomplish that goal. For example, I can find you a dozen posts where guys condescend to other guys. Are they all mansplaining, to other guys? I mean it is an issue about women. We seem to be able to accept when a man condescends to a man. Just go take a gander at the water cooler threads.

Believe it or not, you're gonna have men condescend to women, and vice versa and it won't be because one or the other is sexist. It happens. Keeping the issue to ones where you condescend because you're sexist, and need to be called out, is important. Mansplaining doesn't get that done, sorry. It is now this universal term that means: a man condescended to a woman, and that's bad. It might just be that he's right. Yes, he's a snot for being rude, but that doesn't mean he's wrong about the issue. BTW a woman is also a snot when she condescends. Condescension is a character flaw, not sexism.

The argument that the lack of signature discs is due to sexism lacks a serious amount of credibility. Companies invest where there is money. It isn't clear from any scientific study that women's sport gets the eyes that men's sport does. You can argue that that is sexism, and I would not disagree, (although the article I've posted might give you a pause for thought). But that sexism isn't on the part of companies. It's on our part. Arguing that it's Discraft's or Innova's problem to solve is unfair. If the fans think women's sport should get equal attention, then they need to give that sport their attention, period. It's clear they don't. I won't discuss product sales, we don't have access to the numbers. But we have lots of access to video of tournament play. The eyes have it. Men's events get more views than women's at a rate of about ten to one. That's a pretty clear statement by the fans where they want the companies spending their time and effort. Blaming Discraft or Innova for that is foolish. If you want someone to blame, then we all get some.

Now, I need to go watch the last round of Women's Worlds, darned good tournament...


http://time.com/4322947/men-women-sports-evolution/

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  #124  
Old 09-25-2017, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by bhadella View Post
Elaine finished 10th in FPO this year at Worlds. And won Pro Masters. And is in the top 10 for cash winnings this year. She's still very, very good.
I agree! She is still very good. But, she is now pushing grandmasters age... Which, I applaud! Unfortunately, the target demographic for manufacturers' marketing dollars is more likely to be males, ages 15-25. Elaine just doesn't sell to that crowd as well as other players.

Additional financial data from pdga.com reveals:
> Elaine has ~$93k in career winnings over a 33-year career.
> Paige has ~$140k in career winnings over a 12-year career
> Val has ~$170k in career winnings over an 18-year career.

For perspective...
> Climo has ~$430 in career winnings
> McBeth has ~$340k in career winnings
> Wysocki has ~$281k in career winnings
* Michael Johansson is probably the closest comp to Elaine (in age) after Climo and has ~$118k in career winnings over a 16-year career. And, he's probably ~10 years younger than her.

I am not bashing Elaine at all - what she has done is amazing. I am just trying to illustrate that marketing leaders need to invest in players that will yield the highest return. Unfortunately, Elaine is on the back side of her career. Many other available players will net a higher return for longer...
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  #125  
Old 09-25-2017, 05:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
I don't disagree, in fact I agree...

Please stop using "don't disagree." Especially when you follow it with "I agree."


Am I mansplaining correctly? I want to make sure I do it right.

*trudges off to find Zenbot*

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  #126  
Old 09-25-2017, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
I am not bashing Elaine at all - what she has done is amazing. I am just trying to illustrate that marketing leaders need to invest in players that will yield the highest return. Unfortunately, Elaine is on the back side of her career. Many other available players will net a higher return for longer...
Elaine mentioned the difference in her treatment by Discraft after the founders stepped back from day-to-day management. I worked at HP when Bill & Dave retired. Prior to their retirement, HP was rated by Fortune magazine as one of the top companies to work for in the US. Thereafter they began to fall in the rankings.

Google has placed first for the last six years. Here's why:

Quote:
For the sixth year running, Google has landed the top spot on our list of the country’s Best Companies to Work For. The $75 billion tech titan is famous for luxe perks like free gourmet food, haircuts, and laundry services, of course. But it also takes a *rigorous analytical approach to morale. It boosted its parental-leave policies, for example, after finding that mothers were leaving at higher rates—the result was a 50% reduction in attrition for working moms. And then there’s the culture: Town halls held by black Googlers and allies, support for transgender workers, and unconscious-bias workshops (*already attended by more than 70% of staff) help foster what employees say is a “safe and inclusive” workplace at this hive of high performers.
It's a good business decision to attract and maintain the best talent by treating employees better than your competitors.

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  #127  
Old 09-25-2017, 09:36 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Originally Posted by Golden Tuna View Post
I agree! She is still very good. But, she is now pushing grandmasters age... Which, I applaud! Unfortunately, the target demographic for manufacturers' marketing dollars is more likely to be males, ages 15-25. Elaine just doesn't sell to that crowd as well as other players.
And you know this because …?

Quote:
I am just trying to illustrate that marketing leaders need to invest in players that will yield the highest return. Unfortunately, Elaine is on the back side of her career. Many other available players will net a higher return for longer...
So that must be why a player who ranks 71st in the current ranking, has never finished higher than 13th in an NT or 44th in an Open Major, and whose rating has stagnated merits a signature disc while a team mate who ranks 20th, consistently finishes higher in NTs and Majors (7th and 8th in NTs, 7th in a Major), and whose rating continues to rise, doesn't.
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  #128  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:01 PM
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Originally Posted by philstine View Post
And you know this because …?



So that must be why a player who ranks 71st in the current ranking, has never finished higher than 13th in an NT or 44th in an Open Major, and whose rating has stagnated merits a signature disc while a team mate who ranks 20th, consistently finishes higher in NTs and Majors (7th and 8th in NTs, 7th in a Major), and whose rating continues to rise, doesn't.
Maybe signature discs are not give on an exclusive performance base criteria. Perhaps regional influence is taken into consideration. Perhaps selling the sport, perhaps Ultimate involvement, perhaps giving back to the game........

Perhaps it is up to the individual manufacturer to decide what they feel is best for their company. I mean, if you really feel you deserve something, you go to the boss and talk. If you are told no, you make a decision.....stay or leave. Like EK did.

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  #129  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:12 PM
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Originally Posted by F. Howl View Post
There's no irony here, and if there were it wouldn't be funny (and btw: irony isn't always humorous). Back in EK's heyday, no women from any sponsor had a sig disc. JK was the first as far as I know, and when she received her two it wasn't due to wins or marketability. She suggested a new blend for a putter and the Valkyrie was compensation for work she had done, be her own admission. Paige's first win with Discraft got her a sig Stalker. Val moved to Discraft the year after a win, and so she got a sig Thrasher. Elaine and Val's situations aren't comparable, so no irony.

The OP starts off with "crazy feminist", and even after you defending him he's spouting **** about "white knight feminists".......I would hope you see the irony.
Juliana Korver had a signature disc with Discraft! A Juliana Bower Stratus (her married name at the time). This was before she signed with Innova. People can still find these on eBay every now and then. Why Elaine King never had one is beyond me...

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  #130  
Old 09-25-2017, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nova P View Post
Explain what you mean. A naked assertion is unhelpful.
To preface, I'm not entirely clear on you position but I disagree that white knighting and feminism are mutually exclusive. The traditional definition of white knighting is one that simply comes to another's rescue and a male helping a female achieve social, economical, and/or political equality would seem to fit the definition of white knighting for feminism.

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