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  #141  
Old 04-03-2019, 01:26 PM
Hyzflip10 Hyzflip10 is offline
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Why do I feel that these threads end up being an involuntary focus group for whatever changes someone else wants to perform market research / responses on?
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  #142  
Old 04-03-2019, 01:30 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
I disagree. Good putts of all descriptions can get turned upright and go straight through many older baskets- those manufactured by DGA in particular. There is no putting style immune to it. Eliminating that feature is an improvement. Consistency is what should be strived for in equipment.

Putting harder is not without tradeoffs- comebackers get longer when you miss.
I think part of the issue is that there are so many variations of targets available that the definition of "good putt" is muddy. What is good (sticks) on one variety of target might not be good (stick) on another due to some subtle difference like the way the chains are arranged or their weight or the size of the ring or depth of the tray or whatever. And what one views as a "good" putt is often dictated by the target they play most frequently.

If you putt regularly or even exclusively on a particular target, you probably aren't going to be as consciously aware of its weak spots because your putt, intentionally or not, adapts to minimize them. It isn't until you start putting on other targets (and maybe subtly adjusting to them) that you see that hey, basket X has some cut through or spit out weak spots.

So I wonder if these weak spots would be considered flaws if we had a single standard target to begin with. If the standard target were, say, Mach III, would we see the cut-through on a high, hyzered, "pro side" putt (something that perhaps a Mach X or Discatcher or Chainstar Pro would catch) as a fault of the basket or simply a bad putt?

Not that I'm advocating for a single standard (the toothpaste is out of the tube on that) but since we have some many different target styles with individual strengths and weaknesses, why not acknowledge them and use them in course design? Fit the basket to the course style. Short and wooded in the old school Headrick style probably doesn't need Mach X targets. It can do fine with something that might make putters think a bit, or require a bit of finesse to finish.

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  #143  
Old 04-03-2019, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Sort of. If I run hard at a basket that has OB ten feet behind, there's no random if I miss and go OB. It's my call to take the risk. That increases the difficulty via mental pressure. The same goes for a hole on a slope. It takes risk assessment and knowledge of your game. "Can I leave the disc in the hole? If not, should I lay up?"

Yes, if I miss the putt and it rolls, there is an element of random there. But even then, it can be managed. a flat lofting putt that plays softly is going to be less likely to roll away. Keep in mind, if you find me a sport anywhere without some element of luck, I'll have fun finding scenarios where you are wrong. Managing the situation to eliminate the unlucky is key. "The more I practice, the luckier I get." - Gary Player

We are not asking our top guys (not ams, not im, not rec, but our top players) to use all the skills available. Go watch The Texas States vids. Uli talks about this some. He analyzes Bradley's drives with an eye to spin control, to eliminate or control high-speed driver skips. Bradley throws at a height and angle such that his discs almost always settle flat with almost no skip. And if he needs a skip, he throws a different drive. It's akin to a golfer driving the ball a mile with topspin and having it bounce in front of the green and roll over vs a golfer making the same drive with backspin and having the ball die on the green ten feet from the hole.

We have a notion that if the guy hits the chains he should be good. I disagree, the player should manage the basket the same way that Bradley manages his drives. If you did this, you'd also have more scoring separation. Players that manage their putts better (BTW please go watch Yeti and old school putters like Climo) would be the guys at the top.
OB behind the basket. Two guys can still miss a putt. One will come up short of OB by inches and the other ends up OB by inches. It is hard for me to tell the guy that went OB that his putt is a whole stroke worse than the other guy, or two strokes worse than the third guy that barely caught chains and dropped in. Let the punishment fit the crime.

I understand that there is always going to be an element of randomness in disc golf and that a line of make or miss has to be drawn, but this should not be an excuse to add unnecessary randomness and unfairness. Same goes for roll-aways. One guy hits chains and rolls and another guy hit chains and flops under the basket. Even a good layup rolls on many of the slopes Ive seen. I appreciate that you want to test skill. I want to do that too, but I dont think many of these things actually does that, or at least they dont do that without also bringing on a bunch of other very undesirable baggage that I think more just inflates scoring numbers.

Trees seem necessary to me for fairway and shot shaping and we will have to swallow having there be some tree kicks that are much worse than others. I guess I dont see roll-aways and OB as necessary in that same way, so they should be eliminated or at least reduced whenever possible.

For what it is worth, I am more of a lob style putter. Also, not saying that I am a great player, but the strongest part of my game is my putting. Im good at managing risk and managing a course when I play. Im fairly conservative in my play. I am not a wild big go-for-it arm and I dont have a laser rocket putt. A lot of the suggestions you and others seem to get behind I think would favor my style of play, but I dont think they would be good for the integrity of the sport.

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  #144  
Old 04-03-2019, 03:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
OB behind the basket. Two guys can still miss a putt. One will come up short of OB by inches and the other ends up OB by inches. It is hard for me to tell the guy that went OB that his putt is a whole stroke worse than the other guy, or two strokes worse than the third guy that barely caught chains and dropped in. Let the punishment fit the crime.

I understand that there is always going to be an element of randomness in disc golf and that a line of make or miss has to be drawn, but this should not be an excuse to add unnecessary randomness and unfairness. Same goes for roll-aways. One guy hits chains and rolls and another guy hit chains and flops under the basket. Even a good layup rolls on many of the slopes I’ve seen. I appreciate that you want to test skill. I want to do that too, but I don’t think many of these things actually does that, or at least they don’t do that without also bringing on a bunch of other very undesirable baggage that I think more just inflates scoring numbers.

Trees seem necessary to me for fairway and shot shaping and we will have to swallow having there be some tree kicks that are much worse than others. I guess I don’t see roll-aways and OB as necessary in that same way, so they should be eliminated or at least reduced whenever possible.

For what it is worth, I am more of a lob style putter. Also, not saying that I am a great player, but the strongest part of my game is my putting. I’m good at managing risk and managing a course when I play. I’m fairly conservative in my play. I am not a wild big go-for-it arm and I don’t have a laser rocket putt. A lot of the suggestions you and others seem to get behind I think would favor my style of play, but I don’t think they would be good for the integrity of the sport.

I won't judge what players do by your rather intelligent approach to putting. I'll judge it by what I see players, some who call themselves pros, actually do.

I don't consider them random or unfair, and yes, I accept that you do. Differences make the world go round. Random and unfair is you throw to ten feet from the basket and the TD has a rule that every fourth disc that lands ten feet from the basket gets an extra stroke.

No one makes the player take that shot. No one says run the disc. No one says, don't understand the basket and how to lay the disc in it, no one says, don't evaluate what's behind the basket. If you don't account for those things and run hard at the basket, you've asked for it. I'm not gonna call the stoke you earned by not accounting for the ob random.

It's a bit like the auto accident. There are no accidents, no matter what I told Dad when I rolled his truck. There are always things that happened that can be avoided.
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  #145  
Old 04-03-2019, 03:41 PM
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BTW - I'm not an advocate for moving the ob line from behind the basket so that when a player misses the backboard or bounces the ball of the rim and over the backboard, it randomly goes ob.
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  #146  
Old 04-03-2019, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by SonicGuy View Post
So you don't want to modify equipment, courses, or mechanics. That leaves what, OB penalties? What exactly do you have in mind?
I'm just trying to lead the discussion into the arena away from equipment, courses and mechanics to see if other ideas are worth testing. I'm not sure enough effort has been given to consider possible options because many people have been trapped in this equipment-par-courses thinking loop.
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  #147  
Old 04-03-2019, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
I won't judge what players do by your rather intelligent approach to putting. I'll judge it by what I see players, some who call themselves pros, actually do.

I don't consider them random or unfair, and yes, I accept that you do. Differences make the world go round. Random and unfair is you throw to ten feet from the basket and the TD has a rule that every fourth disc that lands ten feet from the basket gets an extra stroke.

No one makes the player take that shot. No one says run the disc. No one says, don't understand the basket and how to lay the disc in it, no one says, don't evaluate what's behind the basket. If you don't account for those things and run hard at the basket, you've asked for it. I'm not gonna call the stoke you earned by not accounting for the ob random.

It's a bit like the auto accident. There are no accidents, no matter what I told Dad when I rolled his truck. There are always things that happened that can be avoided.
I'm not saying it is totally random and completely unfair. I'm saying there is too much randomness and unfairness to what you suggest. It looks like we disagree on how much randomness and unfairness is acceptable. I tired to give you an example of tree kicks and how I think the amount of randomness is acceptable compared to the benefits of having trees. Even though you espouse some benefits to your suggestions (and I do see them) I think the amount of randomness and unfairness outweighs those benefits by a large margin.

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  #148  
Old 04-03-2019, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
I'm not saying it is totally random and completely unfair. I'm saying there is too much randomness and unfairness to what you suggest. It looks like we disagree on how much randomness and unfairness is acceptable. I tired to give you an example of tree kicks and how I think the amount of randomness is acceptable compared to the benefits of having trees. Even though you espouse some benefits to your suggestions (and I do see them) I think the amount of randomness and unfairness outweighs those benefits by a large margin.
I think I disagree on what you are calling unfair and/or random.
Maybe if we are taking the same scenario and applying it to the marksman style basket I would agree just the way that putts can miss on those. Hell I would argue no chains just a basket would be more fair than marksman baskets for playing on. But OB and slopes AND how you recover and play on from those are all risk/reward choices and skill tests.
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  #149  
Old 04-03-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
I think I disagree on what you are calling unfair and/or random.
Maybe if we are taking the same scenario and applying it to the marksman style basket I would agree just the way that putts can miss on those. Hell I would argue no chains just a basket would be more fair than marksman baskets for playing on. But OB and slopes AND how you recover and play on from those are all risk/reward choices and skill tests.
I might agree with you about the marksman vs no chains at all.

I agree that those things are skills that can be tested, and I can see the desire to test those things, but they have a degree unfairness and randomness that to me are not worth testing those things.

Also, playing on from an adverse incident is still something that is within the game even without roll-aways and OB. Maybe you think there should be more adverse incidents. I think there are plenty of those type of tests without adding more adverse incidents. Same goes for risk/reward choices.
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  #150  
Old 04-03-2019, 05:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
I might agree with you about the marksman vs no chains at all.

I agree that those things are skills that can be tested, and I can see the desire to test those things, but they have a degree unfairness and randomness that to me are not worth testing those things.

Also, playing on from an adverse incident is still something that is within the game even without roll-aways and OB. Maybe you think there should be more adverse incidents. I think there are plenty of those type of tests without adding more adverse incidents. Same goes for risk/reward choices.
Not sure if I think there should be more adverse elements, but it is what I am used to so maybe Im biased.
Of the courses near me 3 are pretty notorias for crazy roll always so I guess its what I think of as challenge and maybe random but not necessarily unfair.
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