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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
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  #4401  
Old 01-12-2022, 07:34 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
https://www.espn.com/golf/stats/hole...ment/401056507

Yes the scoring separation would stay the same. However, then these holes would play as some of the hardest holes on tour, which clearly isn't the desired experience as this tourney serves as a reward for players on tour who won an event. It is much more fun for fans/players to have them as par 5's, fans like to see eagle attempts, if even most are not holed. For the guys that used to walk to school four miles in blowing snow and below zero temps it would probably be par 4's. Much of this whole par talk is simply about personal set-up preferences vs. what the players/tourists/ spectators enjoy the most. Myself I like playing courses where if I perform decently, I have at least some good opportunities for birdies. If the baskets were tougher it would be even better. These golf holes have difficult greens as well. They are easy to play, but tough to conquer, as is evidence by the few eagles on holes that "should' play as "Par 4's".
We changed the par desgination on a few holes on our course.

They play exactly the same, regardless.

I guess it's fun for some to pretend that an average (expected) result is really a good (better-than-expected) result, but that doesn't make the holes any easier or more fun to me.

Par isn't important, of course; we determine winners by total strokes. But it's most useful if it consistently means the same thing -- the expected score.
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  #4402  
Old 01-12-2022, 10:05 PM
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The DGPT should add a stop in Maine. There would probably be lots of "better then perfect" rounds there based upon the way they set par.

(OK, so I haven't played a ton of courses in ME but, in addition to personal experience, I've seen videos pointing out and read about the easy pars. Heck, I think I've gotten some on reviews for pointing this out.)
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  #4403  
Old 01-12-2022, 10:21 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Jimb View Post
The DGPT should add a stop in Maine. There would probably be lots of "better then perfect" rounds there based upon the way they set par.

(OK, so I haven't played a ton of courses in ME but, in addition to personal experience, I've seen videos pointing out and read about the easy pars. Heck, I think I've gotten some on reviews for pointing this out.)
The DGPT is real good at setting par. If they didn't change the course pars for the event, they would likely make the holes difficult enough to justify the par. At least after a year or two of having a Silver Series there.

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  #4404  
Old 01-13-2022, 09:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
You are fixing par, which is one feature of the hole.

We should correct the listed distances on mis-measured holes or change the map when a tee pad is moved, EVEN IF we don't also change the baskets or the design. It's the same with par.




The root - and only - cause of wrong par is setting par wrong.

No matter how well or poorly designed the hole, or how many (or how few) putts the baskets catch, there will be a score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions.

That's par.

As you said, using the correct par will not fix any lack of scoring spread nor eliminate the features intended to pump up scoring spread.

But, using an incorrect par will ALSO not fix any lack of scoring spread nor eliminate the features intended to pump up scoring spread.

Because there are benefits to setting par to the expected score, we might as well get that part right.
Sure let's do it. We already have ropes everywhere and raised baskets on every other hole.

300 foot Par 2's. I'm on board. Why not?
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  #4405  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
You are fixing par, which is one feature of the hole.

We should correct the listed distances on mis-measured holes or change the map when a tee pad is moved, EVEN IF we don't also change the baskets or the design. It's the same with par.




The root - and only - cause of wrong par is setting par wrong.

No matter how well or poorly designed the hole, or how many (or how few) putts the baskets catch, there will be a score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions.

That's par.

As you said, using the correct par will not fix any lack of scoring spread nor eliminate the features intended to pump up scoring spread.

But, using an incorrect par will ALSO not fix any lack of scoring spread nor eliminate the features intended to pump up scoring spread.

Because there are benefits to setting par to the expected score, we might as well get that part right.
There is no such thing as incorrect par.
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  #4406  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:24 AM
txmxer txmxer is online now
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
There is no such thing as incorrect par.
do you have some logic behind this statement or are you just trolling Steve?
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  #4407  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:33 AM
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do you have some logic behind this statement or are you just trolling Steve?
Par is set by either the course designer or TD. It cannot be incorrect.
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  #4408  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
Par is set by either the course designer or TD. It cannot be incorrect.
I guess, but there is a definition of what PAR is supposed to represent. If the results don't align with the definition, how can it be correct?
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  #4409  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
I guess, but there is a definition of what PAR is supposed to represent. If the results don't align with the definition, how can it be correct?
The definition includes, "as determined by the tournament director..."

Furthermore, par came from golf, and golf has never used anything other than designer's designation or that plus changed made by the governing body/sponsor.

If you haven't done so, I highly recommend reading the Houck article linked earlier in this thread. http://www.omagdigital.com/publicati...0666&ver=html5
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  #4410  
Old 01-13-2022, 10:59 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
The definition includes, "as determined by the tournament director..."...
Not any more.

I will agree that "incorrect" was the wrong word.

"Incorrect" would be if one were looking at the wrong hole's par or something like that.

Instead, I should have said something like "not the most appropriate for the skill level" or "not set with the intent of being consistent with the definition". The specific description would depend on the reasoning behind the par that was set.
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