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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #4421  
Old 01-13-2022, 03:28 PM
ballgolfconvert ballgolfconvert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
"the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make"

Nothing but positive integers can be the score.

Par 1s, sure. They'd be about 25 feet long. It might happen at a putting league.

If a TD departs from the definition, there's nothing a player can do to fix it. I've played on holes with n.5 pars. I was tempted to be late just to get a hole score of 7.5 and make extra work adding up the paper scorecards.
Without an accompanying definition of what an 'expert' actually is, that definition is pretty useless and arbitrary. I would say an expert in disc golf is anyone above around a 950-960 rating, which gels in my experience with what would be a scratch golfer in ball golf.
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  #4422  
Old 01-13-2022, 03:32 PM
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glassila glassila is offline
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
There is no such thing as incorrect par.
I understand what you are saying, but do not agree with it.
If a course owner manager sets par for an open 250 foot hole at 4...yes, that's what the par is on the tee sign, but I don't think anyone would say par was correctly set for the hole.
Likewise, if the course manager sets par at 3 for a tightly wooded 500 foot hole.

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  #4423  
Old 01-13-2022, 03:36 PM
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enragedmullet enragedmullet is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassila View Post
I understand what you are saying, but do not agree with it.
If a course owner manager sets par for an open 250 foot hole at 4...yes, that's what the par is on the tee sign, but I don't think anyone would say par was correctly set for the hole.
Likewise, if the course manager sets par at 3 for a tightly wooded 500 foot hole.
Par is in the eye of the disc holder?

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  #4424  
Old 01-13-2022, 06:51 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
Without an accompanying definition of what an 'expert' actually is, that definition is pretty useless and arbitrary. I would say an expert in disc golf is anyone above around a 950-960 rating, which gels in my experience with what would be a scratch golfer in ball golf.

Has no one read the PDGA Par Guidelines yet?
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  #4425  
Old 01-13-2022, 07:02 PM
oldmandiscer oldmandiscer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
Without an accompanying definition of what an 'expert' actually is, that definition is pretty useless and arbitrary. I would say an expert in disc golf is anyone above around a 950-960 rating, which gels in my experience with what would be a scratch golfer in ball golf.
I would say 1000 rating. 9-10 points is usually 1 throw. So Paul who was 1060 would be around +6.5. Maybe 990.
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  #4426  
Old 01-13-2022, 07:03 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassila View Post
I understand what you are saying, but do not agree with it.
If a course owner manager sets par for an open 250 foot hole at 4...yes, that's what the par is on the tee sign, but I don't think anyone would say par was correctly set for the hole.
Likewise, if the course manager sets par at 3 for a tightly wooded 500 foot hole.
If the course was designed for Recreational Women, par 4 sounds about right for a 250 foot hole.

Par 3 on a tightly wooded 500 foot hole would be a tough par, even for for MPO, but not unreasonable.

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  #4427  
Old 01-13-2022, 09:14 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
IDK how or why they came up with this scoring spread for Par. It is completely illogical and silly to me. Completely disagree with it.
Here is the how and why for the Par by Average Score table in the Par Guidelines.

For many years now, a consensus has been forming among the top designers and the TDs of the top events. Not that they all were all talking to each other, but they were setting pars that were similar to each other and consistent with the definition.

For example, just about everyone was using the 1000-rated player as the expert for MPO. Many were using Close Range Par (CRP) or something like it to take into account the types of throws and effective lengths.

Over the course of this thread (and as more and more hole-by-hole-by-player scores became available) a formula was developed which did a very good job of matching the pars that these top thinkers were setting. This is the Par by Scoring Spread Method.

This method worked well enough that it was the basis for redoing the PDGA public par guide in 2016.

In 2022, the definition of par was removed from the rules and put into the PDGA Par Guidelines. (This is when "as determined by the Director" was removed. Mostly so it would apply to Course Designers as well.)

To go along with the definition, the 2016 Par by Effective Hole Length and Foliage was revalidated and expanded.

Because not everyone wants to use any one particular method, several other methods were added. All methods were calibrated to the Par by Scoring Distribution Method, which - if you remember - was itself calibrated to the pars set by the top designers and TDs. In addition to being the best match to the human-set pars, this method could easily be applied to thousands of holes to find underlying patterns.

One of those patterns is how par varies by average score. See the chart for 70,000 or so distributions.



Par and Average are not a precise function of each other, but they are related. The ranges in the table are the best match to Par by Scoring Distribution (within the limitation of being based only on average score for the skill level), which is the best match to the consensus among the top TDs and designers -
Attached Images
File Type: png ParvAverage.png (34.9 KB, 142 views)

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  #4428  
Old 01-13-2022, 09:20 PM
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You gotta love a guy that loves charts like that.. And math... math and poetry is the foundation for everything

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  #4429  
Old 01-14-2022, 09:40 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmandiscer View Post
There isn't one that is satisfactory. If a hole is avg 4.94 is 1100 feet, I'm not calling it a Par 4. Sorry.
Nor should you. And, if you didn't, you would be following the guidelines.

From the PDGA Par Guidelines:

Quote:
[...]Choose whichever method you are most comfortable with for your situation.

While these all aim to accurately determine par, none of the methods will automatically set par correctly all the time. The Tournament Director or Course Designer should review the results and make adjustments as needed.
Guidelines are not dictates. Guidelines are more about steering people away from really bad places than always getting them to the ideal place.

In this case, you know the length of a hole and you used that in your assessment. You know that a hole that long which averages only 4.94 can't have much punishment, so a lot of the throws were errorless, thus par should lean to the high side.

To validate your judgement, you could look at the Par by Hole Length and Difficulty chart and see that a light foliage 1100 foot hole could be par 5. You could look at Close Range Par and see it indicates a par 5.

But in any case, you would be deciding between par 4 or par 5. Either one is pretty good. At least you would have been discouraged from calling it a par 3 or a par 6.

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  #4430  
Old 03-04-2022, 10:13 AM
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