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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #3831  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:10 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
I can't believe you're asking this. If we do as you say, we end up with a ton of par 2s. So, you only have a birdie if you ace. We also end up with ridiculously long par 3s and 4s where the only birdies are fairway aces.
That you would have to explain this at this point is surreal. Par may be many different things to many different people, but apparently only one thinks that it can be a birdie.
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  #3832  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
Par may be many different things to many different people....
Could it be the expected score?

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  #3833  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Could it be the expected score?
Of whom? lol
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  #3834  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:39 PM
tbonesocrul tbonesocrul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
I can't believe you're asking this. If we do as you say, we end up with a ton of par 2s. So, you only have a birdie if you ace. We also end up with ridiculously long par 3s and 4s where the only birdies are fairway aces.
Lets try not to be hyperbolic. Steve's analyses generally recommend lowering par on 2-4 holes each course. Hardly every hole

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Originally Posted by PMantle View Post
On most courses, players of all levels are playing from the same tees. How in the hell is one supposed to set "accurate par"?
The definition: “Par is the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions, as determined by the Director.”

The definition only cares about setting pars for the expert disc golfer. Additionally, Steve's method is based upon defining an expert player as 1000 rated for MPO. He can calculate his pars based on any player rating for which he has sufficient data.
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  #3835  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by tbonesocrul View Post
Lets try not to be hyperbolic. Steve's analyses generally recommend lowering par on 2-4 holes each course. Hardly every hole



The definition: “Par is the score that an expert disc golfer would be expected to make on a given hole with errorless play under ordinary weather conditions, as determined by the Director.”

The definition only cares about setting pars for the expert disc golfer. Additionally, Steve's method is based upon defining an expert player as 1000 rated for MPO. He can calculate his pars based on any player rating for which he has sufficient data.
It's not hyperbolic at all. Have you read this thread?

Steve's method? Why are we discussing some person's method? Why not discuss par?
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  #3836  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:05 PM
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How about we abolish par and just count strokes?

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  #3837  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:20 PM
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It's why I proposed EES, about 3100 posts back. EES stands for "Expert Expected Score". if we used it, we could have BEES (Better than Expert Expected Score), WEES (Worse than Expert Expected Score), etc.

Then we wouldn't have to argue about "par". Par could go on being the score an expert is expected to get, while EES could be the expert expected score, and there'd no longer be any confusion about them.

EES would be useful for all the reasons that par could be, but isn't.
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  #3838  
Old 07-08-2019, 05:31 PM
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Y’all are thinking about this way too hard.

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  #3839  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:10 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
My own simplistic and somewhat vague answer would be, "Is it the expected score?"

If we expect players to get a score different than par, it's not doing it's job---at least, its job in producing many of the small benefits that it potentially could.

If a hole produces such a wide range of results that there is no expected score, then par is not going to be able to do its job, no matter how it's set.

My uncertainty is on holes that produce results like 40/30/20/10. The most likely result is the one 40% get; the expectation might be the score that 70% of players will get, or better.
Thanks. Maybe what I'm looking for is a way to choose among the possible numbers we could select for par for those holes where the expected score isn't obvious. For those, if the definition doesn't provide an single answer, perhaps we are free to set a secondary set of selection rules. Like, perhaps, choose the one that is closest to average.

However, talking about a possible rule like that is getting a little ahead of where I'm at. I want to step back and see if there is any way to look at par on a meta basis to see if it's good or not.

Sometimes when we can't define how to make something better, it is easier to define how to make it worse and then do the opposite.

We all knew par was not as useful as it should have been 5 years ago. We didn't need to look at individual holes to know that. (Although some individual holes provided more evidence.) How did we know par was not fully useful? What was bad about it? How could it have been worse?
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  #3840  
Old 07-08-2019, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hampstead View Post
How about we abolish par and just count strokes?
NO JOKE.

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