#1  
Old 05-31-2022, 09:30 AM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is online now
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 988
Niced 763 Times in 455 Posts
Default "When I fixed X, Y hurt less"

Hey DGCR,

I've begun to notice a lot of patterns between movements and discomfort, pain, or injury in my own development and others' reports. I thought a dedicated thread could help collect researched and anecdotal reports as such. This post was triggered because as my motion pattern has gotten better, little differences in motion seem to reveal important patterns, and sometimes the cause of pain can be far away from where it's located. Using those signals as cues to massage your form is important and can save you from serious acute or chronic injuries. I think it's especially important as you gain power in a swing, but it's still pretty "raw" and variable like mine currently is.

E.g., my favorite current example involves the Drive Phase/leg sets up the plant and all the swing to follow. In the 3-step pump thread Sw22 made a callback to lacking calf flexion in the Drive foot can cause injuries in the throwing shoulder - an effect very far up the chain from the earliest part of the Drive leg action.

I also noticed that poor posture and/or muscle mechanics in the Drive phase can lead to:
-Localized tightness in the drive-leg side sacroiliac region (where the pelvis and tailbone connect), possibly due to "dragging" the rear leg weight.
-Compensatory action in the plant leg action, leading to calf cramping and more jerk-like plant leg action overall. I found that this occurs from coming in from too high in the drive phase into the plant without enough "spring" off the drive leg - the compensatory action is the plant leg gets too much vertical decompression, and compensates with a "jerkier" action. This is hard on front hip and front leg overall.
-Coming in too horizontally into the plant from too low, and shanking drives up w/ some elbow tension
-Coming in too 'diagonally' into the plant, spraying wide w/ some shoulder issues.

Each time I bump into one of these "referred" pains, I stop and back up to work on the cause, which is typically somewhere in the chain well prior to the pain.

Please share any observations & references!
Sponsored Links

Niced: (2)

Last edited by sidewinder22; 05-31-2022 at 11:39 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 05-31-2022, 03:45 PM
lee76007's Avatar
lee76007 lee76007 is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Years Playing: 2.9
Courses Played: 102
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 320
Niced 407 Times in 135 Posts
Default

18 months ago I had arm pain from strong arming. I have progressed from a standstill, one-step, and now working on a two-step or cross step. Eventually leading up to a 3-step by the end of the year, and maybe a 4-step next year? I've watched a ton of SW22 videos, and several over again. Focusing on a deliberate pump, reach back, crush the can, bring the lever forward and I've been told I have snap, and follow thru. Just trying to keep it simple. This morning rounds is the second visit using the two step with putters and mid's on the course the results have been good! Watching the mid's cover distance where my lower speeds fairways now take me on a one-step.

The best news is my 58-year old body feels no pain with less than three years playing. Perhaps next week I'll work on the fairways with the two step on the practice field, I've been very patient in the process. If SW22 reads this thank you!

Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-07-2022, 07:49 AM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is online now
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 988
Niced 763 Times in 455 Posts
Default

Findings from slow swings today:

With drive foot firmly planted, a better backswing heave against that foot automatically keeps the weight high heading into the drive phase, and helps prevent the shoulder from collapsing in transition into the plant because the posture is better and CoG shift causes more separation.

This also allows more time and space for the off arm backswing before the drive, and a more natural swim move heading into the drive phase.

Result is less plant knee, elbow, and shoulder strain, easier and more fluid swing.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-29-2022, 01:06 PM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is online now
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 988
Niced 763 Times in 455 Posts
Default

When I adjusted my posture to have a more "posterior" chain load, my lower back, lower abdominals, and throwing shoulder hurt less.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-01-2022, 07:22 AM
Sheep's Avatar
Sheep Sheep is online now
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Years Playing: 15.2
Courses Played: 62
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 181
Niced 108 Times in 74 Posts
Default

The main reason I got into form and form theory is because of injuries.

I have 2 blown out knee's and a really bad shoulder.

Got tired of throwing out my shoulder having no idea what I was doing.
Not a whole lot you can do about knee's other than learn slower more methodical steps.

Muscling is one of the largest issues I see doing form reviews and watching people on the course, and I believe most of that is due to poor language describing the disc golf swing.
So, my betterment contribution is language in teaching to describe the actions better and proper to trigger your brain to properly engage in the swing. vs actions that dictate to your brain to do the wrong things, which is how we have been teaching disc golf for 30-35 years now. Which are.. well, almost all wrong.
The fundamentals are correct if you do what youre supposed to be doing, but nobody is describing what to do correctly. And that in turns causes frustration.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-01-2022, 09:05 AM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is online now
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 988
Niced 763 Times in 455 Posts
Default

Around here I appreciate the distinctions between mechanics vs. drills & coaching point discussions. Sometimes knowing the mechanics helps, other times it can get people focused on too many minutiae when actually learning to throw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
The main reason I got into form and form theory is because of injuries.

I have 2 blown out knee's and a really bad shoulder.
Sorry to hear that, I'm here because of injuries & a few close calls too.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
Got tired of throwing out my shoulder having no idea what I was doing.
Not a whole lot you can do about knee's other than learn slower more methodical steps.
I agree, plus better control of where your posture & balance are overall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
Muscling is one of the largest issues I see doing form reviews and watching people on the course, and I believe most of that is due to poor language describing the disc golf swing.
I agree & that a lot of the "catchphrases" that people pass around can be helpful at best but very misleading at worst.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
So, my betterment contribution is language in teaching to describe the actions better and proper to trigger your brain to properly engage in the swing. vs actions that dictate to your brain to do the wrong things, which is how we have been teaching disc golf for 30-35 years now. Which are.. well, almost all wrong.
The fundamentals are correct if you do what youre supposed to be doing, but nobody is describing what to do correctly. And that in turns causes frustration.
Would only raise an eyebrow at "nobody" - it'd be strange that any one person has it "all figured out" without real scientific methods, but I do think there has been a form of "progress" in understanding the mechanics and how to teach them. But I'd agree that it's hard to find and distinguish the gold from the coal a lot of the time, which is really unfortunate. I also don't yet know what the "correct" mechanics manual will look like, but on the other hand I think it's fair to say that some people know more than nothing.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-01-2022, 10:26 AM
auzcar auzcar is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Posts: 226
Niced 93 Times in 57 Posts
Default

When I fixed my putting my heart stopped hurting. Just kidding, my putting still stinks and my heart hurt every time I hit the band from 5m.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-02-2022, 07:57 AM
Sheep's Avatar
Sheep Sheep is online now
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Years Playing: 15.2
Courses Played: 62
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 181
Niced 108 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
Would only raise an eyebrow at "nobody" - it'd be strange that any one person has it "all figured out" without real scientific methods, but I do think there has been a form of "progress" in understanding the mechanics and how to teach them. But I'd agree that it's hard to find and distinguish the gold from the coal a lot of the time, which is really unfortunate. I also don't yet know what the "correct" mechanics manual will look like, but on the other hand I think it's fair to say that some people know more than nothing.
"generalisms"

Easier to say "nobody" vs saying only a small handful of us are making an effort to use better language.

I see some of what I'm doing is catching on with some people though who have youtube presence.

I'm really enjoying being in here though and chatting, I should have done this a long time ago.
I hate editing, so I rarely make video's.
Or I dont have time and dont make video's.

So you get into these larger channels now, like overthrow, who puts out great content, but has 0 desire to talk like we are about theory and in depth unless you have some huge subscriber base.

I had to call him out in his comments for basically doing one of sidewinders drills on a video but not giving him credit.
They popped it out into the comments section afterwards.

But the more people we can have discuss terms and come up with better ways. the faster things will evolve.
And I think they are on a good track, but I'm not going to pay into his patreon to try and have conversations with him that he's not even interested in.

Heck, I've talked to danny for a long time and even played a round with him. But getting him to talk about form theory. hahahahaha. Nope.

Back to nobody.
So many of our terms are really really bad, but they keep getting used. Even by people who are really good with form.

But, things like "backswing" is finally catching on vs saying "reach back" which is incorrect.
Pull is a hard one to get rid of, but it needs to go.

I try to not use the word "throw" whenever I can, but that one is hard.
Throw and pull encourage muscling.
Swing encourages "body" and "dance."

It's also great to see people out there making content, but the part that gives me the cringe is they are teaching something they dont fully understand yet without the caveat that "i dont fully understand this yet"

I spent the last 2 years trying to figure out the off arm mechanics before even trying to teach it to others. It baffled me why what others were explaining wasn't working for me, and then I started trying some things and... it's not anything like people explain on the internet.
the "double move" is ... not a thing.
That guy just figured out what works for him, but has no idea how to explain what he's doing.

And the more I learn about it from personal study, the more I realize that if you want to truly teach off arm mechanics into the drive, you need to do it in person to help them with the timing.
IE, for example.
I have to do the off arm when the disc hits the power pocket. If I do it when everyone else explains to do it, I round and the disc comes out ungodly late.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-02-2022, 10:58 PM
hisdudeness47 hisdudeness47 is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2021
Posts: 117
Niced 44 Times in 28 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheep View Post
"generalisms"

And the more I learn about it from personal study, the more I realize that if you want to truly teach off arm mechanics into the drive, you need to do it in person to help them with the timing.
IE, for example.
I have to do the off arm when the disc hits the power pocket. If I do it when everyone else explains to do it, I round and the disc comes out ungodly late.
What exactly do you mean when you say "do the off arm"? Punch the sky? Slap my face? Seems too general/not specific enough. Going forward I'd appreciate better effort out of you so we don't all get in a tizzy trying to figure out what you mean. This is why it's so hard for people to learn. Just a heads up.

Last edited by hisdudeness47; 07-02-2022 at 11:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
 

  #10  
Old 07-03-2022, 08:52 AM
Sheep's Avatar
Sheep Sheep is online now
Par Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Years Playing: 15.2
Courses Played: 62
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 181
Niced 108 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hisdudeness47 View Post
What exactly do you mean when you say "do the off arm"? Punch the sky? Slap my face? Seems too general/not specific enough. Going forward I'd appreciate better effort out of you so we don't all get in a tizzy trying to figure out what you mean. This is why it's so hard for people to learn. Just a heads up.
uhhhhhhhhh......?

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Explanation of the physics of flying discs (FIXED) Rameka Discs 205 04-08-2021 01:38 AM
Innova Skillshot skins: fixed post Casey 1988 Other Gear 16 09-10-2019 09:33 PM
Video of my home course (fixed) Mike C General Disc Golf Chat 15 07-17-2012 09:09 AM
Fixed It For You bmast Discs 21 07-13-2012 01:46 AM
Explanation of the physics of flying discs (FIXED) REDUX RC51ManSam Discs 3 05-27-2012 01:52 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.