#21  
Old 04-26-2022, 08:45 AM
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seedlings seedlings is offline
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Have any rules committee persons given any definite clarifications of:
1) is it definitely a penalty-assessed violation to have a 13yo daughter as caddie?
2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?
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  #22  
Old 04-26-2022, 09:47 AM
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Olorin Olorin is offline
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Here are some interesting rules...

Competition Manual (CM) 3.03 Player Misconduct

CM 3.03B If a player violates the above standard, the Tournament Director may opt, in their sole discretion, to issue a tournament warning for a first offense (except as specified in 3.03.C). Otherwise, the Tournament Director will immediately disqualify the player.

Then...
CM 3.03B.7 Overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules of disc golf during competition (see 801.02.B, Enforcement).

And in the ORDG 8.01. Enforcement
Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. A call must be made promptly to be enforceable (except for misplays).

So as I read this, Paige Pierce and the other players on KT's lead card did not enforce a rule about the age of caddies, so at a minimum they should have been warned by the TD but he also had the right to immediately disqualify each player. This reads to me as the letter of the rules.

Of course, this will never be done, but I find it interesting. My intention is not to criticize or stir up even more controversy. I just found it interesting.

In a similar fashion, when one player fails to call a foot fault, the TD could warn them the first time and should disqualify them the second time they fail to call it. Am I reading these rules correctly?

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  #23  
Old 04-26-2022, 09:49 AM
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BogeyNoMore BogeyNoMore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seedlings View Post
Have any rules committee persons given any definite clarifications of:
1) is it definitely a penalty-assessed violation to have a 13yo daughter as caddie?
2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?
Just to clarify: per Mike Krupicka, caddy rules are a Competition Committee issue, not a Rules Committee issue:

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
Caddie rules are in the Competition Manual which is handled by the Competition Committee.

The Rules Committee handles the Official Rules of Disc Golf and associated Q&As.
Might seem like a minor distinction, as sanctioned play is governed by all of it, but the point is, they're two different committed, both under the auspices of the PDGA.

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  #24  
Old 04-26-2022, 09:53 AM
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Olorin Olorin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seedlings View Post
Have any rules committee persons given any definite clarifications of:
1) is it definitely a penalty-assessed violation to have a 13yo daughter as caddie?
2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?
Since there are 2 threads going on this not all information is being seen here. In the Champion's Cup thread, Mike Krupicka, the Rules committee chairman said,

"Caddie rules are in the Competition Manual which is handled by the Competition Committee.
The Rules Committee handles the Official Rules of Disc Golf and associated Q&As
."

So this is not a Rules Committee issue and the ORDG do not apply to this case. Only the Competition Manual applies and the Competition Committee Chairman, Mike Sullivan, has the authority to make the definitive ruling.
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Old 04-26-2022, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seedlings View Post
2) is it definitely acceptable for another caddie to call a violation?
This is an inaccurate question. Elaine King's intention was honorable. She knew of the case where Val Jenkins had been disqualified in 2018 for misconduct by her caddie. (https://www.pdga.com/announcements/s...uz-masters-cup) Elaine has explained that her thinking was that she was concerned that KT could be disqualified (according to the old rule) so she was trying to warn KT to correct the problem. It just happened that Paige's caddie is a friend of Elaine's. Contacting Paige's caddie turned out to be a poor choice that had many unintended negative consequences. There was never any intention to have a caddie call a violation and the intention was not to get Paige to call a violation, even though it could be interpreted that way.

tl;dr-- per the rules a caddie can never directly call a rules violation

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Old 04-26-2022, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogeyNoMore View Post
Just to clarify: per Mike Krupicka, caddy rules are a Competition Committee issue, not a Rules Committee issue:

Might seem like a minor distinction, as sanctioned play is governed by all of it, but the point is, they're two different committed, both under the auspices of the PDGA.
BINGO! This is a crucially important distinction that few people seem to realize. This issue has nothing to do with courtesy violations or anything in the ORDG. The relevant parts of the CM are 3.05 Carts, Caddies, and Groups and 1.13 Youth Safety.
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Old 04-26-2022, 10:18 AM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Olorin View Post
This is an inaccurate question. Elaine King's intention was honorable. She knew of the case where Val Jenkins had been disqualified in 2018 for misconduct by her caddie. (https://www.pdga.com/announcements/s...uz-masters-cup) Elaine has explained that her thinking was that she was concerned that KT could be disqualified (according to the old rule) so she was trying to warn KT to correct the problem. It just happened that Paige's caddie is a friend of Elaine's. Contacting Paige's caddie turned out to be a poor choice that had many unintended negative consequences. There was never any intention to have a caddie call a violation and the intention was not to get Paige to call a violation, even though it could be interpreted that way.

tl;dr-- per the rules a caddie can never directly call a rules violation
I believe it was stated that Elaine first tried to contact KT directly, but when that failed (KT wasn't looking at her phone), she pinged PP's caddie to get her to tell KT to check her phone.

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Old 04-26-2022, 10:51 AM
Dcinmd Dcinmd is offline
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Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
I also thought about the role as commentator. Definitely not a commentators role.
What is the role of a board member of an organization? A bit different from a commentator.
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Old 04-26-2022, 10:57 AM
txmxer txmxer is offline
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Originally Posted by Dcinmd View Post
What is the role of a board member of an organization? A bit different from a commentator.
But does that translate to being a rules official to a specific event?

I don’t think it should. JMO.

I’ve not run an event and learned pretty much all I think I know from these discussions here, but basically there is a chain of command for an event. You are either part of it or you are not.
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  #30  
Old 04-26-2022, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by txmxer View Post
I believe it was stated that Elaine first tried to contact KT directly, but when that failed (KT wasn't looking at her phone), she pinged PP's caddie to get her to tell KT to check her phone.
I think that is what Elaine said, but I don't remember every detail of the order of events. I wasn't trying to rehash every detail of what happened. I truly believe that Elaine acted from good intentions, but in her haste she didn't anticipate all of the unintended consequences and how it might look.

Everyone who is interested needs to...
1) Be charitable and give Elaine the benefit of the doubt. She has demonstrated her character and integrity over her 35+ years of elite disc golf. People need to stop immediately thinking the worst of people and attributing evil motives when they don't know all of the facts.
2) Listen to her interview with Terry Miller on SmashboxxTV

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