#11  
Old 05-13-2022, 03:43 PM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,058
Niced 818 Times in 487 Posts
Default

I don't want you to suffer the "too many cooks" problem, but based on how you are moving I would spend more time with Crush the Can out of Hershyzer. You need to get the feel for a "freefall" and learn to trust the weight shift forward and down into the plant.

You might try doing Crushing the Can nearly completely vertically like SW22 does in some of his vids, then swinging. Your body needs to learn that falling with your eyes away from the target is a good thing. It's this "Trust Fall" that our brains really want to resist. But you need it.

The size of the "Trust Fall" will eventually be proportional to the size of the plant stride/desired power of the throw. But you probably need to exaggerate it a lot until your body finds it natural.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 05-15-2022, 02:46 PM
Dundee Dundee is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 32
Niced 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
I don't want you to suffer the "too many cooks" problem, but based on how you are moving I would spend more time with Crush the Can out of Hershyzer. You need to get the feel for a "freefall" and learn to trust the weight shift forward and down into the plant.

You might try doing Crushing the Can nearly completely vertically like SW22 does in some of his vids, then swinging. Your body needs to learn that falling with your eyes away from the target is a good thing. It's this "Trust Fall" that our brains really want to resist. But you need it.

The size of the "Trust Fall" will eventually be proportional to the size of the plant stride/desired power of the throw. But you probably need to exaggerate it a lot until your body finds it natural.

Ive never heard the stride into the plant foot described as a trust fall. Ive never thought of it as falling into my plant foot. Is that an exaggeration? I sometimes find myself struggling to realize if I should be emulating the motion these drills teach, or if they are just drills to get a feel of what you should be doing. That may not make sense, kind of hard for me to explain.

Which video is the Crush the Can out of Hershyzer? Ive watched these two videos before, but not sure if thats what youre referring to.

https://youtu.be/BuvujcEMLxs

https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso

I really suck at doing crush the can. I cant get my heel high enough that its above the top of the can. Am I thinking about this drill wrong? I need more cans for this drill lol
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 05-15-2022, 03:34 PM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,058
Niced 818 Times in 487 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
Ive never heard the stride into the plant foot described as a trust fall. Ive never thought of it as falling into my plant foot. Is that an exaggeration? I sometimes find myself struggling to realize if I should be emulating the motion these drills teach, or if they are just drills to get a feel of what you should be doing. That may not make sense, kind of hard for me to explain.

Which video is the Crush the Can out of Hershyzer? Ive watched these two videos before, but not sure if thats what youre referring to.

https://youtu.be/BuvujcEMLxs

https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso

I really suck at doing crush the can. I cant get my heel high enough that its above the top of the can. Am I thinking about this drill wrong? I need more cans for this drill lol
It's an exaggeration that is also true - it doesn't seem as much like a "fall" when it becomes fluid off of the rear/drive foot in your form. But you are indeed "falling" in the same way that you do when walking forward and your weight tips forward into the next step. Shorter steps will yield shorter falls. In walking and the DG backhand, you don't ever want to feel like your feet are "disconnected" - it's a fluid & quick transition from the drive step into this little plant "fall".

SW22's drills isolate & sometimes exaggerate those mechanics because you need to "overshoot" it a bit so your body can recognize it as different and integrate it. But most of his drills put you into the correct posture for that range of motion for that specific mechanic. So there I'd say "trust the drill" - in my case it has never steered me wrong once I get my body to do the right thing (i.e., the drill). I am always surprised at how "big" the change looks and feels in the drill but how small it looks in my form.

For Crush the Can, the key is getting the body's weight to completely lead the swing. So I'm not sure what is making it tricky for your heel to get atop the can, but you can even try hopping almost vertically to on top of it and then swinging after the weight settles like SW22 shows in a couple vids. The point in the end is that most of us tend to have some of our weight "trailing" the swing and don't let gravity do enough work. Instead, we need to learn to get as much of the weight leading the swing as possible while being in balance. You also need to learn to surrender yourself - while in balance - to gravity.

When your plant stride is longer on a bigger shot it's like a bigger "trust fall", but it's still connected to & quick off the rear foot. That's part of why it can be so hard to learn - if your posture is just a little bit off, you can still stride into the plant quickly, but botch the weight shift. If you botch the weight shift, your body can't uncoil from the ground up for maximal acceleration. That's part of why so many players get so little power from their x-step. It's drastically different when you start to get it. It feels awesome.

Right now, it looks like your plant leg is really trying to prevent the sensation of falling. It's functioning like a very firm pole saying "gravity will have no role here." But you need to get that gravity to power the swing. Tom Petty tells us what to do instead.

Here's the time stamp I'm suggesting from Hershyzer part 2:
https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso?t=125

As a point of empathy, I've been at this daily for 6 months and it wasn't until the last couple weeks that my weight shift really started functioning better. I had to get a lot of other mechanics/posture stuff worked out first, and spending a lot of time with standstills continues to be worth it. My x-step improves bit by bit now even when I don't practice it.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 05-15-2022, 07:37 PM
Dundee Dundee is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 32
Niced 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brychanus View Post
It's an exaggeration that is also true - it doesn't seem as much like a "fall" when it becomes fluid off of the rear/drive foot in your form. But you are indeed "falling" in the same way that you do when walking forward and your weight tips forward into the next step. Shorter steps will yield shorter falls. In walking and the DG backhand, you don't ever want to feel like your feet are "disconnected" - it's a fluid & quick transition from the drive step into this little plant "fall".

SW22's drills isolate & sometimes exaggerate those mechanics because you need to "overshoot" it a bit so your body can recognize it as different and integrate it. But most of his drills put you into the correct posture for that range of motion for that specific mechanic. So there I'd say "trust the drill" - in my case it has never steered me wrong once I get my body to do the right thing (i.e., the drill). I am always surprised at how "big" the change looks and feels in the drill but how small it looks in my form.

For Crush the Can, the key is getting the body's weight to completely lead the swing. So I'm not sure what is making it tricky for your heel to get atop the can, but you can even try hopping almost vertically to on top of it and then swinging after the weight settles like SW22 shows in a couple vids. The point in the end is that most of us tend to have some of our weight "trailing" the swing and don't let gravity do enough work. Instead, we need to learn to get as much of the weight leading the swing as possible while being in balance. You also need to learn to surrender yourself - while in balance - to gravity.

When your plant stride is longer on a bigger shot it's like a bigger "trust fall", but it's still connected to & quick off the rear foot. That's part of why it can be so hard to learn - if your posture is just a little bit off, you can still stride into the plant quickly, but botch the weight shift. If you botch the weight shift, your body can't uncoil from the ground up for maximal acceleration. That's part of why so many players get so little power from their x-step. It's drastically different when you start to get it. It feels awesome.

Right now, it looks like your plant leg is really trying to prevent the sensation of falling. It's functioning like a very firm pole saying "gravity will have no role here." But you need to get that gravity to power the swing. Tom Petty tells us what to do instead.

Here's the time stamp I'm suggesting from Hershyzer part 2:
https://youtu.be/Ns1utgTifso?t=125

As a point of empathy, I've been at this daily for 6 months and it wasn't until the last couple weeks that my weight shift really started functioning better. I had to get a lot of other mechanics/posture stuff worked out first, and spending a lot of time with standstills continues to be worth it. My x-step improves bit by bit now even when I don't practice it.

Hmm I'm going to have to rewire my brain because it has never felt like I'm falling in any of my throws. Even my best throws have never had that feeling.

I do several loopghost and sidewinder drills indoors and it feels like I'm bracing, and I especially notice it (at least what I think is bracing) when doing standstills. However, whenever I grab a disc and introduce an x-step to the equation, everything gets mucked up.

Before I get into the Hershyzer drill, I guess it would be better to make sure I'm even doing the Crush the Can drill right. Link to video: https://youtu.be/sbl3Q63fObI

This what I mean by not being able to do the crush the can drill. Every time the can goes flying and I'm not really sure what's going wrong. Is my weight transfer incorrect? Is it as simple as sidewinder wearing hiking boots and I'm wearing running shoes with a smooth-ish tread? Not enough force coming down on the can? I have no idea and it's extremely frustrating as I don't see what SW is doing that I'm not doing.

For the Hershyzer drill, I feel like I'm "bracing" if I focus more on pushing off my rear leg into the plant leg instead of consciously thinking about falling. I notice my rear foot gliding backwards like SW mentions in several of his other videos, and it feels natural. Maybe it's just people describing the same action differently and for some reason, different explanations make more sense for some people as opposed to other explanations. On the other hand, I don't know where to start in thinking about "falling". I thought pitchers where pushing off the mound into the pitch, not fall off the mound by gravity.

Time-stamped Crush the Can Part 2.1: https://youtu.be/BuvujcEMLxs?t=55

But if you watch this portion of the Crush the Can video, SW talks about turning too early which causes you lean over the top of your foot. And I'm doing that in every single one of my form videos. It feels so less powerful. It seems like I should be moving "backwards" into the throw, while pushing off my rear leg.


Interesting you describe my plant leg as a pole, because that's exactly how I think of what a brace is doing. My forward momentum out of the x-step is being stopped by my brace leg, so that it causes my upper body to release that energy that was built up in the run up and x-step. But I'm obviously not doing a good job at that, or I'd throw 400ft at minimum on all my distance throws.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 05-15-2022, 09:08 PM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,058
Niced 818 Times in 487 Posts
Default

It's possible to brace in a few ways. You have one and are swinging behind it, but it is like your leg is "posted" already when you plant. Instead, you want to drop into the plant with a bit of squat (Hershyzer) and "post up" like a pogo resisting collapse and springing back against the ground. The more you add the gravity assist/compression, the more you can rebound/decompress. It is this action that clears the front hip and accelerates the swing, uncoiling from the ground up (Tilted Spiral by seabas22).

In your Can Crush, you look too focused on the toe heel action and like you're trying to rotate into it. You are not fully dropping your weight straight down on top of it when shifting from behind you. That's why it squirts out beside you- your weight is coming in at a shallow angle and not fully committed over top of it. Try hopping straight from above, still landing toe-heel. Don't worry about rotation- it will happen on its own when the mechanics improve.

I would attempt the Crush as suggested above first and we can see how it looks.

To improve the "shift from behind",
I needed to do different drills hundreds of times over 1" to hammer it into my form. The Crush will get your weight dropping, then the Hershyzer and Clement drill here will help you get it coming into the swing from the correct posture:

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 05-16-2022, 12:19 AM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 16.1
Courses Played: 257
Posts: 19,864
Niced 7,299 Times in 4,194 Posts
Default

Yeah, watch your rear hip spin out in your crush the can. You should also get this feeling in Swivel Stairs, don't need the can, but you can like Crush the Can part 2.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-17-2022, 08:26 PM
Dundee Dundee is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 32
Niced 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Yeah, watch your rear hip spin out in your crush the can. You should also get this feeling in Swivel Stairs, don't need the can, but you can like Crush the Can part 2.
I need to practice the swivel stairs more. I've tried it couple times and haven't really felt anything, so I must be doing something wrong.

Luckily I suck at crushing the can, so I get a good 30 attempts out of every can. Here's my latest attempt. Bad attempt is the can going sliding like usual. The Maybe Better attempt is after numerous bad attempts, so the integrity of the can has weaken severely. Also my toes are coming off the ground slightly, but it's been extremely hard trying to crush the can while keeping them on the ground. Is that defeating the purpose of this drill?

Bad: https://youtu.be/pTbqBiiMgqs
Maybe Better?: https://youtu.be/jxM1bNveB7s

Also, I think the can was just so weakened from previous attempts that I was able to crush it without needing to properly do the drill. Agree?

When doing this drill, I have been trying to think about keeping my rear hip "back". Is that correct? What else should I be thinking about?

Also thanks for watching some dude try (and fail) to crush a can in the kitchen lol
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-17-2022, 09:14 PM
Brychanus's Avatar
Brychanus Brychanus is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2021
Location: Philadelphia
Posts: 1,058
Niced 818 Times in 487 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
Also thanks for watching some dude try (and fail) to crush a can in the kitchen lol
Lmao-Dude, have you seen any of the other form threads around here? We're all a little nuts!

I think you've inched in the right direction but there's still too much rotation and not enough "fall".

I want to see you aim the butt more toward the can as you load up, then fall more back onto it from over top of it. It's more like the posture you use when you're sitting down into a chair. A controlled fall backwards.

We're trying to get you into the same motion as Swivel Stairs, ending with the heavy can crush in the plant.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-19-2022, 05:57 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 16.1
Courses Played: 257
Posts: 19,864
Niced 7,299 Times in 4,194 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dundee View Post
I need to practice the swivel stairs more. I've tried it couple times and haven't really felt anything, so I must be doing something wrong.

Luckily I suck at crushing the can, so I get a good 30 attempts out of every can. Here's my latest attempt. Bad attempt is the can going sliding like usual. The Maybe Better attempt is after numerous bad attempts, so the integrity of the can has weaken severely. Also my toes are coming off the ground slightly, but it's been extremely hard trying to crush the can while keeping them on the ground. Is that defeating the purpose of this drill?

Bad: https://youtu.be/pTbqBiiMgqs
Maybe Better?: https://youtu.be/jxM1bNveB7s

Also, I think the can was just so weakened from previous attempts that I was able to crush it without needing to properly do the drill. Agree?

When doing this drill, I have been trying to think about keeping my rear hip "back". Is that correct? What else should I be thinking about?

Also thanks for watching some dude try (and fail) to crush a can in the kitchen lol
Your front foot/leg is rotating open into the plant.

Rotate backwards into the rear hip into the plant.

It is ok if the toes don't remain on the ground, you can pre-crush the can if it's too tall for you, or use something shorter like a cigarette pack or pretend there is a bug.
Reply With Quote
 

  #20  
Old 05-23-2022, 12:18 AM
Dundee Dundee is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Apr 2022
Posts: 32
Niced 4 Times in 3 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Your front foot/leg is rotating open into the plant.

Rotate backwards into the rear hip into the plant.

It is ok if the toes don't remain on the ground, you can pre-crush the can if it's too tall for you, or use something shorter like a cigarette pack or pretend there is a bug.
I don't feel like a 12oz can should be too tall for me to crush. I'm 5' 7" and wear a size 11 shoe... I have temporarily stopped trying to crush the can and instead just trying to get the movement down. Does this look correct?

Link: https://youtu.be/omHux_3tDRc

I feel like I'm keeping my rear hip back when I do this, but I'm not sure at this point. Pretty frustrating how I can't figure this out. I tried doing what I did in the linked video when I threw today, but I could never get myself into that position. My upper body is still leaning towards the target.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Trying to improve backhand from 380ft to 400ft+ RocHucker Form Analysis/Critique 18 05-09-2022 12:15 AM
Form Update/Help - Want to break 400ft EOY McbethsHat Form Analysis/Critique 19 04-23-2022 12:33 PM
Need help with backhand form Jepezu Form Analysis/Critique 1 06-18-2018 04:15 PM
Help with backhand form Dire Wolfy Form Analysis/Critique 11 06-01-2018 11:13 PM
Form Help, need to get to 400ft! TroyMcClure Form Analysis/Critique 8 04-12-2013 07:04 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:32 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.