#1  
Old 04-28-2020, 09:34 PM
Rastnav Rastnav is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Durham, NC
Courses Played: 17
Posts: 441
Niced 258 Times in 148 Posts
Default Understanding stability?

This might properly belong in one of the other discussion areas, but I figure it's a pretty noob question.

So, I understand the basic concepts of overstable and understable, and I can really feel the difference between, say, a Champion Teebird and a GStar Wombat. I know that the disc speed and the plastic both contribute to how stable a disc is.

The higher speed a disc is, the more it is overstable by nature. So, an understable distance driver is likely more stable than a overstable midrange.

Different plastics used in the same disc mold have an impact on stability as well. A champion disc will be more overstable compared to the same disc in G-Star plastic. I watched the same Innova video everyone else did, I assume.

I also understand plastic beats in over time and gets less stable (as impact damage noses the rim of the disc downward).

The question I have is about the rating numbers on the discs and how they relate to stability.

For example:
Rancho Roc: Speed 4/ Glide 4/ Turn 0/ Fade 3 ???
Wombat: Speed 5/ Glide 6/ Turn -1/ Fade 0
Leopard: Speed 6/ Glide 5/ Turn -2/ Fade 1
Teebird: Speed 7/ Glide 5/ Turn 0/ Fade 2

The Rancho Roc is in Star plastic. I don't know the ratings on a Rancho Roc, so I listed a regular Roc above. That one I can't turn over and it's easy to lose left.

The Wombat is in GStar plastic and and I can easily turn it over.

The Leopard is in Gstar Plastic as well. I haven't really turned it over just gotten it straight with a mild left finish. But, I can also easily lose it straight left.

The Teebird is in Champion plastic and is a "meathook" as I saw it described elsewhere in this site.

So, do the numbers actually have all that much to do with stability? Is it just the plastics? But why can't I really turn over that Leopard yet? I would think it would just as easy to do as the Wombat, but that's not the case at all. I wouldn't think the numbers would say that a Teebird should be basically impossible for me to throw straight at this point, not when I can easily turn over the Wombat.

Or are the rating numbers kinda useless? You just have to ask someone whether a disc is over or understable?

As usual, I write a book to ask a "simple" question, so thanks to anyone who got this far!
Sponsored Links

Last edited by Rastnav; 04-28-2020 at 09:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 04-28-2020, 10:16 PM
armiller's Avatar
armiller armiller is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: West Virginia
Years Playing: 5.5
Courses Played: 199
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 3,614
Niced 976 Times in 614 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
So, do the numbers actually have all that much to do with stability? Is it just the plastics? But why can't I really turn over that Leopard yet? I would think it would just as easy to do as the Wombat, but that's not the case at all. I wouldn't think the numbers would say that a Teebird should be basically impossible for me to throw straight at this point, not when I can easily turn over the Wombat.

Or are the rating numbers kinda useless? You just have to ask someone whether a disc is over or understable?
I'll see your book and raise you a volume.

The numbers do as good of a job as possible describing disc flight. But like you mentioned, there are many other factors that affect a disc's stability. If you try throwing warp speed discs like Katanas, you'll find that some are extremely overstable, but some are extremely flippy, even in just one plastic and weight. The numbers [13, 5, -3, 3] indicate to me that it is designed to be a high speed driver with decent glide and relatively high turn (aka low high speed stability or HSS), but the fact is that molding plastics is inconsistent. (As an aside, this tends to be worse for high speed drivers.)

I use that example just to say that numbers are far from the be all end all. If you look at Infinite Discs, you'll notice their numbers don't match the designers. Others mention that different manufacturers' ratings don't compare well to others. And then you'll see people on this site saying, "my beat Star Teebird flies like a 7, 5, 0, 2." So it gives a way to communicate information and give you some idea of expected flight, but all that becomes much less important as soon as the disc leaves your hand.

I haven't thrown a Gstar Leopard, but I have thrown Champ and Star. I can tell you premium plastic Leopards can be beefy. I personally bag and Pro Leopard, and I think that might be a decent purchase for any new player. Actually, they also start out with a surprising amount of overstability, but the advantage of Pro plastic is that it beats it much more quickly and then stays in a nice place (as opposed to DX, which tends to get really flippy really quickly). As another aside in this stream of consciousness post, give a 165-175 DX Teebird a try, and you'll see how much difference plastic can make. It might be a good straight disc, especially after some tree hits.

I wouldn't say the numbers are useless, but they are more of a "relative" comparison between discs, as opposed to some kind of absolute description. One thing DGCR is useful for is viewing the Disc forum when considering disc purchases. You can typically find people with a comparable arm speed to your own, and then find discs that have fit certain roles for them. And when the COVID zombie apocalypse has subsided, you can always try the good old "throw the plastic in your buddy's bag" thing.

Sorry dude. You bring out my verbosity!

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 04-29-2020, 08:18 AM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Courses Played: 16
Posts: 311
Niced 209 Times in 98 Posts
Default

An understable driver is not likely to be more overstable than an overstable midrange. Some extremely slow discs are far more overstable than some extremely fast discs. A better way to put that speed in stability context is to assume that, given identical turn and fade ratings, a "faster" disc will fly more overstable.

The numbers are half information half marketing.

You can't turn that Leopard because you aren't throwing it fast enough.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:14 AM
Rastnav Rastnav is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Durham, NC
Courses Played: 17
Posts: 441
Niced 258 Times in 148 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by armiller View Post
I'll see your book and raise you a volume.


Sorry dude. You bring out my verbosity!
I'm all about some good ol' verbosity. My verbose speed is at least regional pro level. Arm-speed? More sub-chump.

I see a lot of reference to OAT (Over Axis Torque). I don't really know what that is, but I imagine it's something like rolling your hand over during your swing. Does that also play some role? Maybe I'm not actually turning the Wombat over, just turning my hand over.

Speaking of a DX Leo, I have a brand new one that came in a starter pack. I've thrown it maybe 4 times total, no trees. That thing turns over so hard it seems non-useful at this point.

How do disc weights play into all of this? I assume that starter pack Leo is lower weight than the other discs (although the Teebird is about 165g, I think).


@Armus Patheticus
Quote:
You can't turn that Leopard because you aren't throwing it fast enough.
Oh, I very much understand. The question I was asking was more "Why is more arm speed inadequate for a disc that, by the numbers, should be equivalent to another disc I have in terms of the ease at which you can turn it over?"
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:31 AM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Courses Played: 16
Posts: 311
Niced 209 Times in 98 Posts
Default

OAT is off-axis torque. Meaning that you are creating rotational force contrary to the intended spin and primary axis of the disc. This manifests itself as wobble or flutter and makes the disc behave as more understable.

Disc weight matters, but not a lot.

Even by the numbers, a Leopard is not equivalent to a Wombat in turn. You have to throw a Wombat "5" to get turn, but a Leopard "6". But remember that the numbers are only vaguely useful, and in no way precise.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:35 AM
mostlynorwegian mostlynorwegian is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Chicago
Courses Played: 5
Posts: 236
Niced 93 Times in 74 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
I'm all about some good ol' verbosity. My verbose speed is at least regional pro level. Arm-speed? More sub-chump.

I see a lot of reference to OAT (Over Axis Torque). I don't really know what that is, but I imagine it's something like rolling your hand over during your swing. Does that also play some role? Maybe I'm not actually turning the Wombat over, just turning my hand over.

Speaking of a DX Leo, I have a brand new one that came in a starter pack. I've thrown it maybe 4 times total, no trees. That thing turns over so hard it seems non-useful at this point.

How do disc weights play into all of this? I assume that starter pack Leo is lower weight than the other discs (although the Teebird is about 165g, I think).


@Armus Patheticus


Oh, I very much understand. The question I was asking was more "Why is more arm speed inadequate for a disc that, by the numbers, should be equivalent to another disc I have in terms of the ease at which you can turn it over?"
You may be tumbling a few ideas together, but. Not sure yet.
Disc weight does a lot for a disc, and how it behaves.
Lighter weight equals less stability, and or requires less speed to replicate the same behavior. but also the plastic itself can do the same thing. My two max weight Gazelles are a prime example. The Champion one is a meathook. The Star one is absolutely not. I have to release them on very different angles to get to the same spot. And, then on the weight side of same plastic with a lighter one, and a heavier one. My wedge's also demand me to release them at very different angles to achieve the same result.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-29-2020, 10:39 AM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Courses Played: 16
Posts: 311
Niced 209 Times in 98 Posts
Default

A big part of the reason that different plastics impact stability is that a Thunderbird (for example) in Champion plastic is not the same disc as a Star version. It only has some of the same writing on it.

The shape of the disc determines the stability, not the stamp.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-29-2020, 12:03 PM
knivvves's Avatar
knivvves knivvves is offline
Bogey Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Indiana
Courses Played: 7
Posts: 61
Niced 78 Times in 29 Posts
Default

Marshall Street's Flight Guide is useful in understanding stability. If you click on a specific disc, you can see its intended flight. That'll help you learn what those Turn and Fade ratings mean, and also help you see if you're throwing the disc correctly. A new player is likely to have at least a handful of things off about their form that are going to cause the disc to fly differently from intended.

Also it's important to know that flight ratings are just a rough guide, and that disc golf manufacturers are all rating slightly differently. Hell, Discraft didn't even use the standard 4 number system until 2018 I believe. A lot of companies rate their discs how they fly when they're brand new. But then for Innova's premium plastic discs, they'll usually fly more overstable than their ratings - you need to beat them up a bit before they start to fly like their ratings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
The higher speed a disc is, the more it is overstable by nature. So, an understable distance driver is likely more stable than a overstable midrange.
I wouldn't agree with this. I think the confusion is either because
1) the farther you throw a disc, the more it has time and room to move left or right.
or
2) a player with a 7 speed arm who is throwing a 12 speed disc, that disc is going to act very overstable.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-29-2020, 06:07 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Years Playing: 9.6
Courses Played: 19
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 4,273
Niced 1,584 Times in 885 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rastnav View Post
Or are the rating numbers kinda useless? You just have to ask someone whether a disc is over or understable?
If you understand disc speed and the requirements needed to get a disc up to the speed where it flies like the rating, it's a bit easier to come to grips with. Typically the biggest mistake those new to the sport make is buying higher speed discs. At that point unless you're a natural born bomber, they're ALL going to fade left early on for the most part. If you stick to speeds 7 or less, a new player will have a much better chance of getting the disc to eventually...perform similar to the rating. And.......you'll have a much funner experience as you learn the game.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
 

  #10  
Old 04-29-2020, 06:21 PM
Horsman's Avatar
Horsman Horsman is offline
Pandamonium Discs
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Years Playing: 14.4
Courses Played: 179
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 4,535
Niced 1,062 Times in 460 Posts
Default

Ive always looked at flight numbers as accurate for top professionals and that everyone else is going to have to figure out how those numbers translate to them. Infinite discs does a prety good job at this. Me being a pretty proficient player means that Im pretty confident that I can pick up any disc and look at the flight numbers and be able to throw it accordingly.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Better Mando Understanding wake_rider Rules Questions & Discussion 10 10-28-2012 07:46 AM
Understanding my Discs TreeHate General Disc Golf Chat 16 02-26-2012 01:25 AM
Eagle stability> or < Teebird stability? MoWeems Discs 24 02-19-2011 11:01 PM
Understanding The Throw Johnnyfats Technique & Strategy 25 06-22-2009 05:25 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.