#21  
Old 01-02-2019, 04:56 PM
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rhatton1 rhatton1 is offline
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Maybe it's just the questions wording that has riled me somehow. I keep putting myself in the position of player N and if that situation occurred to me I would be absolutely furious. Not only are you being called a cheat by three other players you are being given a stroke penalty with no burden of proof whatsoever - they haven't seen you cheating, they just don't believe you are telling the truth? We've all seen many many strange and unexpected lies from throws where if you hadn't seen it arrive there you'd never believe it had.

We're all also encouraged to keep up speed of play. I get to my lie, I'm good to go, I crack on. If someone had any doubts I'd hope they would voice them before I took my shot anyway.

The idea that I could step up to a perfectly good lie, throw my perfectly good shot and get penalised does not sit well.

Also if you question someone on moving a lie enough to give them a stroke penalty then surely they should be disqualified for cheating anyway? How can you continue a round where a group has just accused you of cheating/lieing and penalised you for it. You're either a cheat and should be out or you're not and you're taken at your word? I can't see the situation where both can apply? Ie you're not a cheat, but we didn't see it so here's a stroke penalty for good measure? Really? I'm not seeing the shade of grey. The rule becomes superfluous. Competition Manual 3.03 C 1 takes over.

And also, is the answer listed as correct, correct? If a player has taken the shot and then subsequently (but before another player throws) the lie was deemed to be incorrect, isn't it a misplay? - 811 F C Shouldn't it be a rethrow and a one shot penalty? The wording of the question seems to suggest they allow his throw and the round to continue but give him a stroke.

This has got me as annoyed as though it has happened to me
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  #22  
Old 01-02-2019, 04:58 PM
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krupicka krupicka is online now
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Sounds like he had a chance to verify to me but it would come down to he said/she said nonsense. There is really not quite enough info here to make an educated judgement. If the bolded part includes Player A arriving at the lie in question and then doing the measuring with player B in place 20 feet away the whole time I would tend to side with Player A. Is this an actual case? If so, hopefully i will not be subjected to a round with Player B any time soon.
This was an actual case unfortunately. Since player B was just standing there and not making any attempt or indication that it was questionable, I ruled in favor of player A. It wasn't like player A was in a rush. He paced off his lie, chose a disc, etc. Player B wasn't making any motion/comment/etc. where he was trying to verify it but prevented from doing so by player A's actions. If player B was sill walking towards player A and player A threw, I would have ruled that the disc would have to be considered OB.

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  #23  
Old 01-02-2019, 05:01 PM
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I don't see any ambiguity. If someone in the group says, "that drive may be OB," or "that's going to be close to OB," then the group checks the lie to make sure before you mark and throw. If you're within a meter of the line and plan to take your relief, the logical thing to do is have a cardmate verify that the disc is indeed inbounds and the the relief you are taking is correct.

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Old 01-02-2019, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by tonyroberts View Post
I don't see any ambiguity. If someone in the group says, "that drive may be OB," or "that's going to be close to OB," then the group checks the lie to make sure before you mark and throw. If you're within a meter of the line and plan to take your relief, the logical thing to do is have a cardmate verify that the disc is indeed inbounds and the the relief you are taking is correct.
Absolutely. If a cardmate's disc is near OB, I make it a point to walk with them, look it over, cheerfully say something like "lookin' good!" or "close one!" and move away to let them throw. (I make sure to use good cheer because a raging narcissist once accused me of being nosy. As if things that happen on my card are none of my business. . .)

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Old 01-02-2019, 05:10 PM
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
If you put an exact distance on it (call it within X of OB), you're still creating a situation where a player who is near that area will just claim "it was X+1 away from the line" if questioned about the unseen disc's status after the player has moved the disc.
Yes but it's a situation where there is a lot more pressure on the player to play it correctly.

From a distance away in most instances you might not be able to see the disc but you can see where the player is standing. If they are taking a stance within a meter of OB or even close to this or moving their mini it puts the burden on the player to ask for guidance from the group. This would negate the need for this rule altogether, any perceived infringement would be straight to cheating and disqualification there could be no Grey area as their currently is. Three people would have to be absolutely sure that the player had just picked up and moved their disc more than a meter.
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  #26  
Old 01-02-2019, 05:18 PM
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I suspect I play on a course with more OB than a lot of you from the answers above. At Quarry Park over here every hole has OB... well, it used to be everywhere, now thankfully, it's just most places, hopefully one day it will just be in some places....

If every disc near what could be considered OB needed to be approved by the group we'd never finish a round..... The only ones you'd ask for a second opinion on are questionable ones, up against a fence or on a riverbank where you'd want to be sure. Unless you had really good prior reason not to you'd just take the other players at their word.
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Old 01-02-2019, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
If every disc near what could be considered OB needed to be approved by the group we'd never finish a round..... The only ones you'd ask for a second opinion on are questionable ones, up against a fence or on a riverbank where you'd want to be sure. Unless you had really good prior reason not to you'd just take the other players at their word.
The important thing in a competition is that you and your cardmates are clear about what you're doing -- before you do it. If there's any doubt about your footing, your lie, or your mark, you just ask "is this OK?"

Consider the drive in the original post that may have been OB. As you approach the lie, it becomes clear that you're well off the line. You tell a cardmate "looks like I'm about 15 feet from the line." He agrees and your good. It doesn't take all day.

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Old 01-02-2019, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
This was an actual case unfortunately. Since player B was just standing there and not making any attempt or indication that it was questionable, I ruled in favor of player A. It wasn't like player A was in a rush. He paced off his lie, chose a disc, etc. Player B wasn't making any motion/comment/etc. where he was trying to verify it but prevented from doing so by player A's actions. If player B was sill walking towards player A and player A threw, I would have ruled that the disc would have to be considered OB.
Sounds like how I would have handled it as well.
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  #29  
Old 01-02-2019, 07:15 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
I suspect I play on a course with more OB than a lot of you from the answers above. At Quarry Park over here every hole has OB... well, it used to be everywhere, now thankfully, it's just most places, hopefully one day it will just be in some places....

If every disc near what could be considered OB needed to be approved by the group we'd never finish a round..... The only ones you'd ask for a second opinion on are questionable ones, up against a fence or on a riverbank where you'd want to be sure. Unless you had really good prior reason not to you'd just take the other players at their word.
I think you're exaggerating about the extra time to make a point, but no one is arguing that every lie needs to be "approved" by the group in order to be in bounds. It is only, as you say, the questionable ones that really need to be verbally and formally confirmed. And if a group is moving through the course as it should by rule, it should rarely, if ever, need to take extra time to deal with discs near enough to OB to be "approved". I mean, how big are these fairways and how far are players throwing that the group gets so separated from one another that they can't settle 99% of cases without taking a single extra step more than they would otherwise?

On my home course, 14 of 18 holes have OB. I probably played 100 or so rounds last year between casual and tournament settings, and I can count on one hand the number of instances where we had a questionable shot where we had to get right up close to the disc to determine or confirm that it was in bounds. The rest, even when the disc was within 5-10 feet of the line, were easy enough to see from as far away as the tee to call it good without making a production out of it. No need for the thrower to ask for confirmation, no need for any group member to go out of his way to confirm a disc's status.
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  #30  
Old 01-02-2019, 09:23 PM
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Dan Ensor Dan Ensor is offline
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I don't see sufficient information in the question. Why is no one there to clarify? If it's willing, I'd imagine they're taking my determination as accurate.

I'd also like to see clarification on what is necessary to "determine OB status". Where does it say my determination is insufficient? Where does it state the necessary steps for me to take to cover my ass?

And given that none of those complaints are valid, wouldn't the correct answer still be "The group decides whether the likelihood of OB necessitates an OB ruling."?
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