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Old 03-07-2019, 07:03 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Default Throw or Drop

This came up on Reddit.

Player is lining up a forehand shot and they are pumping the disc forwards and backwards a few times assessing their line, before they take their shot. Due to a loose grip the disc slips unintentionally out of their hand and flies forward a short distance.

Throw or drop or other?
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Old 03-07-2019, 07:30 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Based on QA-THR-1, it depends on the motion involved: "A throw begins when the disc is moving forward in the intended direction. A disc dropped or knocked out before or during a backswing does not count as a throw."

I'd say if it was a forward motion, and there wasn't anything that knocked the disc out of the thrower's hand, you have to call it a throw. I know I've been faked out by pumps enough that if the disc comes out, I don't know if I'd know the difference between intentional and accidental release.
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Old 03-07-2019, 09:03 AM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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My first read of the q&a lead me that way as well. But looking at*802.01 the definition of a throw now has an intention element in it (was this the 2018 rule change?).


Quote:
A. A*throw*is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. Each throw that is made as a competitive attempt to change the lie is counted.
I think this means that a judgement call has to be made as to whether the player*propulsed*and released the disc in order to change its position. IE did they intend to let go? This inclusion of intentionality in the definition of a throw seems to carve out a space for drops to exist, even if they come from a forward movement.

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Old 03-07-2019, 09:28 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Old 03-07-2019, 11:23 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by cheesethin View Post
My first read of the q&a lead me that way as well. But looking at*802.01 the definition of a throw now has an intention element in it (was this the 2018 rule change?).




I think this means that a judgement call has to be made as to whether the player*propulsed*and released the disc in order to change its position. IE did they intend to let go? This inclusion of intentionality in the definition of a throw seems to carve out a space for drops to exist, even if they come from a forward movement.

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I understand there's an intent element to it. That's not new, it was in the 2013 edition of the rules (it may be older but 2013 is the book I have handy). My point was intent is difficult to decipher in the moment. I've been fooled by enough pump fake style practice swings (turning my head to watch the non-existent disc fly) that if a player let go in a practice swing, the distinction between it being intentional or accidental can be difficult to discern. Difficult doesn't mean impossible. I suppose a player's reaction can be taken into account when making the call. I mean, if they curse or say "oops" or something that makes it obvious they didn't mean to let go, I wouldn't argue a ruling that it was a drop.

Ultimately, it is a judgment call so I don't think the rule can be black and white about it. I would approach a generic situation such as presented here from the point of view that it was a throw unless it can be proven otherwise.

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Old 03-07-2019, 12:33 PM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume? I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.

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Old 03-07-2019, 12:51 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume? I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.
Yes there will be some hard to call situations where differentiating between practice swing and actual throw is tricky. But I don't think the rule can be interpreted as ANY forward movement on the lie constitutes a throw. Think Eagle or Conrad (these are the first two that come to mind), they both do a slow motion forward swing of the disc on their tee shots, as they gauge their intended line. It is obviously not an action intended to be an actual throw. If one of them let slip the disc in their slow motion swing, would you consider that a throw? I wouldn't, and this is where in order to change its position from 802.01 comes in to play. Someone being on their lie, and the disc travel forward is not enough on its own to constitute a throw. And no, I agree, a player can't simply say "didn't mean that, take backs", it is up to the card to judge whether it was an intentional 'throw' or not.

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Old 03-07-2019, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume? I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.
Yeah, there's no need to bring any "intent" conversation into this picture.

On the lie? Check
Disc went forwards? Check

That was a throw.

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Old 03-07-2019, 02:20 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Originally Posted by roggenb3 View Post
Yeah, there's no need to bring any "intent" conversation into this picture.

On the lie? Check
Disc went forwards? Check

That was a throw.
But the definition of a throw 802.01 includes an intention element, you can't just ignore that part of the definition.

Quote:
A*throw*is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position. .......
A drop is an unintentional release.

Also a throw is not defined by its location. I can be 20m off my lie and still make a throw - it'll be a misplay or a practice throw depending, but it is still a 'throw'.

Being on the lie may well be evidence towards the player intending to throw, but not conclusive on its own.

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Old 03-07-2019, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
If they are on their lie and propel the disc forward, what else are we suppose to assume?
I agree with this sentiment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
I've had some bad releases where the disc slips out of my hand while throwing. I should not be able to say, "that's not what I meant to do" and get a do-over.
Correct. Because you intended to change its position and made and errant throw, whether due to a slip or not, it counts as a throw. This is not what the OP is talking about. He is talking about the happenstance where a player accidentally releases a disc before attempting to throw.

How do the players on the card to know the difference?

Wouldn't it be a better rule to state something to the effect of "propulsion of the disc forward (beyond the lie), once the player has taken a stance, constitutes a throw"? That way, no one has to guess the intent of the thrower. If the disc goes forward, its a throw. The rule might need to expand on "forward" for throws that might intentionally be made backward but which result in a better lie (i.e., throwing back out in to the fairway from brush, or toward a mando or around an obstacle, etc). Maybe, even simply "any release of the disc once the thrower has taken a stance is a throw"? I.e., it leaves your hand, its a throw. What could be the possible benefit of allowing players to drop or accidentally release a disc without counting the action as a throw once they've taken a stance?
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