#11  
Old 03-07-2019, 06:44 PM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
What could be the possible benefit of allowing players to drop or accidentally release a disc without counting the action as a throw once they've taken a stance?
I've seen many players take 2-3 drivers to the tee, assess the hole, step to the rear of the tee (still on it) and drop the ones not using behind them. Clearly they did not intended those as a throw. Personally it wouldn't take much for players to leave the tee and do the same thing, but it is a common routine.
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  #12  
Old 03-07-2019, 06:52 PM
LateWesternSky LateWesternSky is offline
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Originally Posted by roggenb3 View Post
Yeah, there's no need to bring any "intent" conversation into this picture.

On the lie? Check
Disc went forwards? Check

That was a throw.
So when you mark your lie for a putt, pick up the disc you threw from the tee (while on your lie) and set it on/in front of your marker, that is a throw?

Player on the lie? Check
Disc went forward? Check

Definitely not a throw.

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  #13  
Old 03-07-2019, 09:01 PM
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Doofenshmirtz Doofenshmirtz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
I've seen many players take 2-3 drivers to the tee, assess the hole, step to the rear of the tee (still on it) and drop the ones not using behind them. Clearly they did not intended those as a throw. Personally it wouldn't take much for players to leave the tee and do the same thing, but it is a common routine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LateWesternSky View Post
So when you mark your lie for a putt, pick up the disc you threw from the tee (while on your lie) and set it on/in front of your marker, that is a throw?

Player on the lie? Check
Disc went forward? Check

Definitely not a throw.
Under the current rule, you are both correct. If the rule were to be changed as I suggested, and the players knew it, what would be their excuse for not having either counted as a throw? Or, is it better to leave some kind of intent determination on their cardmates as in the current rule?
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  #14  
Old 03-08-2019, 03:22 AM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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When on the lie, doing practice swings, you are intending to throw. You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release. How a bout a bad tap in putt? "I just dropped my disc in the practice swing, doesn't count!"

I have a had a branch knock the disc out of my hand before i wanted to release it on a putt, but it wasn't a practice swing. Is that a throw?
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  #15  
Old 03-08-2019, 06:30 AM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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I once arrived at a leaf-covered tee, and decided to clear it by fanning it with one of my discs, swinging it back and forth just about ground level. Well, on one of those swings the disc slipped from my hand and went about 15 feet, not forward or backwards or down but left in relation to the hole's layout, through some brush and into a creek.

This was prior to the "forward motion" in the Q&A. It was also in a casual round, so never adjudicated. But it planted a bit of paranoia in my head to be more careful about what I do on the tee, particularly with a disc in my hand. And to brush and future leaves off with my feet.

As for the incident at hand, I'm comfortable with inferring intent. I expect there to be very few incidents where it's not obvious whether a player intended to throw, or not, and can live with the one-in-a-million graying of the line.

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  #16  
Old 03-08-2019, 08:39 AM
Suspect Suspect is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
When on the lie, doing practice swings, you are intending to throw. You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release. How a bout a bad tap in putt? "I just dropped my disc in the practice swing, doesn't count!"

I have a had a branch knock the disc out of my hand before i wanted to release it on a putt, but it wasn't a practice swing. Is that a throw?
That is what happened to me on an upshot. I reached back, as pulling a little forward, the disc got caught in the bush a bit. The disc didn't even go past me. The card determined it wasn't a throw.

If the disc went any distance closer to the basket from my lie with that happening, is that a throw?

I think its a judgement call.
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Old 03-08-2019, 08:58 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
Under the current rule, you are both correct. If the rule were to be changed as I suggested, and the players knew it, what would be their excuse for not having either counted as a throw? Or, is it better to leave some kind of intent determination on their cardmates as in the current rule?
Getting players to know rules that don't seem intuitive is difficult. An element of inferring intent is a worthy trade-off, compared to making a long list of natural and inconsequential actions illegal.

Also, we're self-officiated. The possible thrower is part of the group and can weigh in. A lot of times they'll make an immediate, reflexive (and therefore honest) comment about what happened.

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  #18  
Old 03-08-2019, 09:20 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Has anyone ever been in a group in a PDGA event and had the group call something like this a throw against the declaration of the thrower that it was not? Just curious...
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  #19  
Old 03-08-2019, 12:04 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
Wouldn't it be a better rule to state something to the effect of "propulsion of the disc forward (beyond the lie), once the player has taken a stance, constitutes a throw"?
A new rule like this would also need to account for throws taken while not on the lie/having taken a stance. Practice throws, misplays etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
As for the incident at hand, I'm comfortable with inferring intent. I expect there to be very few incidents where it's not obvious whether a player intended to throw, or not, and can live with the one-in-a-million graying of the line.
I agree.
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  #20  
Old 03-08-2019, 12:27 PM
cheesethin cheesethin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
When on the lie, doing practice swings, you are intending to throw. You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release.
I think that is expanding 'intention' beyond usefulness, when I turn up at the course and get my bag out of the van, I am 'intending' to throw.

802.01 defines the intention pretty narrowly:

Quote:
A throw is the propulsion and release of a disc in order to change its position.
It ties the intention with the specific release - not some general 'if you let go while generally considering you might have a throw soon'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
...You might not be intending to throw at that exact moment, but the same can be said for any early or late release.
QA-THR-1 defines the starting point of a throw as the forward part of the motion not the backswing or before the backswing. An early or late release happens after this start point so is differentiated from practice swings.
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