#51  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:14 PM
Codo Codo is offline
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I'm working on making this my driving style. It makes so much sense to me.
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  #52  
Old 06-28-2019, 03:25 PM
trasf trasf is offline
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It's always good to have visual presentation from one part of the throw, but still, I thought this is the most obvious one from hundreds of slowmo videos. Getting in to that point is still hardest part and when you get to that point you feel like you're basically a passanger on a ride.
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  #53  
Old 06-29-2019, 03:31 AM
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pauldst pauldst is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan Ensor View Post
Nobody cares about your bent elbow, snake strike, or whip Dave. Do you even disc golf???
The snake strike and the bent elbow (putting and forehand, respectively, right?) have been helpful to me. Over the years, my throwing suffers when I get away from them and corrects when I get back to them.
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Originally Posted by SonicGuy View Post
Yeah that really doesn't address the question at hand. From a physics perspective, what is the difference between a whip cracked from a coiled position vs from a straight position? It seems to me that the energy your body imparts on the whip is wasted in "dynamically coiling" the whip vs starting from a pre-coiled position where the energy is directly applied to "dynamically uncoiling" the whip.
Assuming I am understanding correctly what is meant by "pre-coiled", I think I can see why pre-coiled doesn't work. First, the pre-coiled position is too tight and too flat; the whip will bump into itself as it uncoils, throwing off the action, and not be free to form a wave pattern. Second, starting pre-coiled seems like trying to create a wave from the middle rather than an end, so to speak, and that just creates chaos, rather than a wave. Think of waves in water: they develop from a cause, they aren't born fully grown.
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  #54  
Old 06-29-2019, 10:41 AM
RFrance RFrance is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pauldst View Post
Assuming I am understanding correctly what is meant by "pre-coiled", I think I can see why pre-coiled doesn't work. First, the pre-coiled position is too tight and too flat; the whip will bump into itself as it uncoils, throwing off the action, and not be free to form a wave pattern. Second, starting pre-coiled seems like trying to create a wave from the middle rather than an end, so to speak, and that just creates chaos, rather than a wave. Think of waves in water: they develop from a cause, they aren't born fully grown.
^^ I think this is a good analogy to get you head around it.

Physiologically I would believe that if you precoil the wrist you won't get the quick lengthening of the forearm muscles needed to trigger the myotatic stretch reflex. Without using the precoil, as the wave of the whip is initiated the wrist folds inward stretching the forearm muscles quickly allowing the muscle spindle fibers to signal motor neurons for a quick and stronger contraction which will snap back as the wave of the whip reaches the end of its path. I think this is what was referred to as the tendon bounce in the old DGR discussions.



Last edited by RFrance; 06-29-2019 at 10:44 AM.
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  #55  
Old 06-30-2019, 05:46 PM
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Dan Ensor Dan Ensor is offline
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Originally Posted by pauldst View Post
The snake strike and the bent elbow (putting and forehand, respectively, right?) have been helpful to me. Over the years, my throwing suffers when I get away from them and corrects when I get back to them.
I was being fairly facetious. I read his bent elbow article dozens of times. I watched the snake strike several times. This whip video, though, doesn't seem to add anything to the current discussion of the dg throw. When you have someone like Nate that can give a clinic like that, I don't really see the point in that video.

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  #56  
Old 07-02-2019, 02:09 PM
RunnerUp RunnerUp is offline
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I was happy to see someone that knows more than me talk about "whip" vs "reach back". I've noticed in the field that when I focus on reaching back I end up stiff-arming throws. It feels like I have no power at all. This of course is not inherent to reach back necessarily, but it's what happens to me!

I'm finding that when I concentrate on a quick pull through and a tight snap the results are obvious. When I get it right I don't even need to see the disc in the air yet to know that it's got the mustard behind it. Good share!
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  #57  
Old 07-02-2019, 05:24 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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IMO you have to be tall/lanky like Seppo/Dave Dunipace to start the throw curled up in your center. You don't see any shorter guys doing that or any of the ladies.

Even in Dave's video Seppo's arm is basically straight back.




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  #58  
Old 07-02-2019, 05:31 PM
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Discette Discette is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThrowaEnvy View Post
Well.. I walked around the house for a solid week, driving the dog nuts with my invisible disc... but I could immediately hear the snap from my hand or at least the wind movement. I would say there was a weird adjustment period for 2-3 weeks. It's not that I totally changed my throw it's just that instead of a 3 count it was 4 and instead of a straight disc/arm motion there was a pitstop where the hand tucked and the elbow cocked.

Results started to show up immediately, even with slower speed throws, I just connected easier and often providing the disc with more spin with less effort.

Adding a pause before the throw also helped me immensely. If you start "throwing hard" or "throwing fast" right after you reach back, you strong arm the disc and you won't get that whip. By "waiting" to "throw fast" until your hips have turned, you can put all your power/speed into the hit.

My four count is:

Step - Relaxed grip. Take first step with right foot
Reach- Reach back while the left foot is doing the X-step. Not necessarily a "reach" as it is a turn away from the target.
And.... - This is the "pause" where I plant the front foot, and start turning the hips. Grip is still relaxed.
Throw - Grip hard and start the real acceleration as the disc moves past chin/center line.



When throwing in the woods down tight narrow fairways, the "straight reach back, pull straight forward on a line" throw decreases distance, but definitely increases accuracy. However, there is still a pause before that acceleration. Straight line pull also works well on stand still approach shots, so it is a good skill to have.


Without knowing distance of those Seppo drives, one might infer his longer reachback is for slower throws that require more accuracy instead of distance. But that is just an educated guess, not necessarily a fact. As you see, Evelina (bottom thrower) is throwing a very, very straight shot AND using the straight line reach back.

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Last edited by Discette; 07-02-2019 at 05:34 PM. Reason: comment on Evelina's straight reach back
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  #59  
Old 07-02-2019, 07:47 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Discette View Post
When throwing in the woods down tight narrow fairways, the "straight reach back, pull straight forward on a line" throw decreases distance, but definitely increases accuracy. However, there is still a pause before that acceleration. Straight line pull also works well on stand still approach shots, so it is a good skill to have.


Without knowing distance of those Seppo drives, one might infer his longer reachback is for slower throws that require more accuracy instead of distance. But that is just an educated guess, not necessarily a fact. As you see, Evelina (bottom thrower) is throwing a very, very straight shot AND using the straight line reach back.
I agree straight reachback helps accuracy. I disagree that straight reach back decreases distance. Swing length from the hips/pelvis turning/stride speed controls distance.

Eveliina straight crushing it:

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  #60  
Old 07-03-2019, 12:56 AM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrance View Post
I think this is what was referred to as the tendon bounce in the old DGR discussions.

Thanks for posting that. I wish you were around when I was trying to understand what the hell tendon bounce was on DGR 8+ years ago. I finally figured it out but I had to read so many walls of text over there for it to sink in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
IMO you have to be tall/lanky like Seppo/Dave Dunipace to start the throw curled up in your center. You don't see any shorter guys doing that or any of the ladies.
One thing I really like about Seppo's form is that his setup always keeps his arm to shoulder angle at 90* or more so he's never hugging himself. I try to mimic that as much as possible when I need to throw a bent-elbow style of shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I agree straight reachback helps accuracy. I disagree that straight reach back decreases distance. Swing length from the hips/pelvis turning/stride speed controls distance.

Eveliina straight crushing it:
I'm kinda gonna quibble a little bit here. I don't think it's so much the reachback as it is the footwork and having a real pointed hit. I don't know many guys that throw straighter and more accurately than Barry Schultz and with his wide rail he is practically never reaching straight back. Andrew Fish is another expert needle threader and his ultimate style windup where he keeps his offhand on the disc during the reachback also keeps his reachback from being classically straight. Johansen is also not much for straight reachbacks. But all three of those guys are excellent at stepping into their throw very straight and pointed so their hits are very synced/aligned for straight ejections. I guess a lot of this has to do with which method you're using for a straight line i.e. hyzer flipping something neutral and floaty or powering up on something really HSS like a Teebird.

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