#131  
Old 07-18-2019, 10:39 PM
Armus Patheticus Armus Patheticus is offline
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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
I'm not sure what to think about a different view of progress? A negative view? Like progress is a bad thing?

Innovation maybe an annoying corporate buzz word but that doesn't mean the thing that the word is for is a bad does it? Pretty sure innovation is good, that is why it is so over used as a corporate buzz word and cliche.


Negative behavior is not encouraged by competition, just that it happens to be a stage that it can be easily observed. Again you are blaming competition for A-holes showing their colors. If competition were the problem this would be behavior common and it would develop in people that do not exhibit this in other places of their life. The certain negatives you are associating with competition from the start of this thread is the old trap of correlation and causation. One does not define the other.
There is nothing about the definition of "progress" that implies a positive or a negative, so certainly progress could be a bad thing, but I was using the word as I felt you intended to use it, as a positive advancement. I doubt I would view as positives many of the same things you do.

The correlation/causation trap can be a tricky one to escape. Sometimes imagination as all we have to work with. I do believe that bad behavior is common (in many areas of life) and is often connected with competition. But I cannot prove this since while I live within some small freedom from competition, I've never lived in a large-scale world without it.

From personal experience, I don't think everyone who plays with earbuds and makes excuses is an A-hole.
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  #132  
Old 07-18-2019, 11:46 PM
Hyzflip10 Hyzflip10 is offline
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Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
There is nothing about the definition of "progress" that implies a positive or a negative, so certainly progress could be a bad thing, but I was using the word as I felt you intended to use it, as a positive advancement. I doubt I would view as positives many of the same things you do.

The correlation/causation trap can be a tricky one to escape. Sometimes imagination as all we have to work with. I do believe that bad behavior is common (in many areas of life) and is often connected with competition. But I cannot prove this since while I live within some small freedom from competition, I've never lived in a large-scale world without it.

From personal experience, I don't think everyone who plays with earbuds and makes excuses is an A-hole.
How did earbuds come into the picture? Some of us use the earbuds to block out the excuse making A-holes and stay in our own zone.
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  #133  
Old 07-19-2019, 02:15 AM
Static Fiction Static Fiction is offline
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Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
If I could eliminate one word from the English language, it would be that propagandic mainstay "innovation". Listen for it. It's in all the ads.
Do you throw anything from Innova?
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  #134  
Old 07-19-2019, 10:58 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
Self absorption and denial of reality:
Surely you have seen players with earbuds in, or players who refuse to speak to their fellows. This doesn't mean that they are bad people, but why are they doing it? Because the primary value is competitive. They believe that they are more focused thus able to perform better, and so they are willing to sacrifice more important things like simple human interaction. How bizarre to walk around a woods all afternoon with three other guys and ignore them for the sake of your score...
This is so off base that I have to wonder if maybe you're projecting or something
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  #135  
Old 07-19-2019, 11:48 AM
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Streets Streets is offline
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I imagine if I was on Armus' card, I would listen to earbuds as loud as I could stand.
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  #136  
Old 07-19-2019, 12:14 PM
puck'n'disc5 puck'n'disc5 is offline
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AP, does the word 'virgin' trigger you?
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  #137  
Old 07-19-2019, 04:20 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
There is nothing about the definition of "progress" that implies a positive or a negative, so certainly progress could be a bad thing, but I was using the word as I felt you intended to use it, as a positive advancement. I doubt I would view as positives many of the same things you do.
I guess specifics aside, yes I view progress as an overall net positive in most cases.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Armus Patheticus View Post
The correlation/causation trap can be a tricky one to escape. Sometimes imagination as all we have to work with. I do believe that bad behavior is common (in many areas of life) and is often connected with competition. But I cannot prove this since while I live within some small freedom from competition, I've never lived in a large-scale world without it.

From personal experience, I don't think everyone who plays with earbuds and makes excuses is an A-hole.
I wasn't really tying to classify earbud wearers as *******s, just the concept that what you have commented on, or seen as negative behaviors, are just an individuals personality traits. These things are there with or without competition.

Some behavior is negative, and it is highlighted or expressed more clearly during competition but that doesn't make competition itself a negative thing. It is simply a stage that allows an audience to see these behaviors.

So... some positive anecdotes from this week alone about leisurely competition.
Earlier this week I went to my home course for the singles weekly. Casual rolling start and saw someone I would say is a good friend. We chatted, he was just finishing up a round and wasn't going to play the weekly because he doesn't like the randomness of who he ends up throwing with. Fair enough. He then said if he knew he could play with me and a few others he named off (basically the local AM40 crowd) he would be all in.
I thought about this situation in relation to this thread. The reason he and I met and are friends is through leisurely competition. I was thinking about it and all of the guys he mentioned even our casual rounds we compete. Its not serious, only slightly more in sanctioned events. We congratulate each others good shots, express empathy or maybe light razzing about the bad ones or bad breaks. We are friends that only met through disc golf, and what I realized is closer friends BECAUSE we compete than I am with people I happen to just have a casual round with, maybe people I play with all the time but we never compare scores and sometimes don't keep score. Those are acquaintances, there is bonding that happens through competition.

This idea, the bonding through competition isn't that profound. Stories of developed mutual respect are common in sports history, athletes who are fierce competitors through a career but are, or become great friends. Often when this isn't the case it is not because of competition it is because those two simply have conflicting personalities and would never be friends.
A couple days later (last night) I was at my non-DG athletic hobby, one that is a higher priority in my life than DG and play pickup games usually twice a week. We are tight knit group. I have friends all over the world with this sport and all of them I met only because of the competing with them. The competition is something to bond over and some of these bonds are very very tight, and can thankfully overcome many other points we would disagree about. I was thinking about my home club and a couple of the guys I feel closest to I almost never play with but always against in our games. There is a mutual respect and we talk and laugh and joke about one of us besting the other and what we should have done or wanted to do to get the better of them.

I really believe that this is something tribal, instinctual and beneficial to community bonding.


I kind of get the impression Armus, that you are maybe part of a commune or something similar. A very controlled environment where cooperation is fundamental to everyone's daily life. I wonder if there is an idea that cooperation and competition are thought of as antonyms? I think in one aspect that could be seen as true, but I would very much disagree on that being a black and white line. They can exist together, competition does not mean conflict.

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  #138  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:06 AM
robdeforge robdeforge is offline
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Originally Posted by puck'n'disc5 View Post
AP, does the word 'virgin' trigger you?
.... where did that come from?
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  #139  
Old 07-20-2019, 09:47 AM
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filobedo filobedo is offline
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Competition in many B and C tiers is non existent in age restricted divisions where I live. A few people win them all because they like to play with friends instead of testing their abilities against players with similar skill levels. The irony is, some of these players play with friends every week casually. At least the people that play with them get a participation trophy aka players pack, lol.
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  #140  
Old 07-20-2019, 04:04 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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Originally Posted by filobedo View Post
Competition...testing their abilities against players with similar skill levels.
Caution: Thread drift !

Why are you (if I'm reading you correctly) inferring that competition can only exist when there are somewhat equals involved?
I'll show my hand by saying that that's about as competitive as flipping a coin (i.e. 1 day I win, 1 day you win, ad infinitum).
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