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Old 09-26-2014, 07:58 AM
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grodney grodney is offline
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Default Friday Fun - knee-jerk design critique - sight unseen

It has come to my attention that there is a 4.22 rated course, listed as mostly flat and moderately wooded, with the following being all of the 1-shot holes on the course:
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2. 339 short, 339 long
3. 342 short, 444 long
4. 327 short, 378 long
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6. 327 short, 327 long
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8. 311 short, 351 long
9. 312 short, 372 long
10. 315 short, 368 long
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12. 335 short, 335 long
13. 317 short, 368 long
.
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16. 357 short, 405 long
17. 395 short, 395 long
.

That's just bad. ALL 11 1-shot hole are 311-395 from the short, and 327-444 from the long. What a horrid lack of variety. Anybody can design a bunch of 350 foot holes with a few trees. Show me some skill in creating short holes that will be both fun and challenging.

Further, this length of hole might be fine for pros or top-level advanced, but for the VAST majority of disc golfers, these are pretty crappy hole lengths. Yikes.

Agree? Disagree?
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2014, 08:29 AM
bhadella bhadella is offline
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Nothing wrong with having a "advanced" level course. I actually prefer courses that are more uniform in difficulty across holes instead of having inconsistent levels of challenge from hole to hole. All of these holes nicely fit into the "Blue Tee" rating.
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:31 AM
bhadella bhadella is offline
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Are the holes not included in your review par 4/5s?
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Old 09-26-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhadella View Post
Are the holes not included in your review par 4/5s?
The rest are 4's.
Since it's "sight unseen", I won't link it.
The shorter tees are listed as red on DGCR, but are white on the hole signs, blue for the longer ones.
I'm often interested in seeing how a course fits into the puzzle of the DG scene in the local / regional area. It may be that the designer(s) was looking to provide hole styles that wouldn't be found in abundance at other local courses.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:01 AM
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Blue level Par 3s on level ground whose length starts with a 3 are potentially suspect as having insufficient scoring spread.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:10 AM
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Those hole lengths get old. You can't get a 2 because it's just out of range. But you'll never get a 4 because it's not long enough. I've often skipped holes like this because a 3 is inevitable, and I save time anyway.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grodney View Post
Agree? Disagree?

As a 33 year old 900 rated intermediate player. I can reach those distances from the tee (okay not the 444 but i can push 400 and be left with a 40-50 putt). I'll need to play ultra consistent to stay below par, and to me, maybe only me, that is fun.

FWIW, I have no idea what/where this course is.

That said, I completely understand your point, tho. Just not all courses need to provide a short/technical option. If there are other local options for short technical rated lower than 4.22, this courses rating is likely a clear indication which course/style the local players prefer playing.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:31 AM
bhadella bhadella is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrawk View Post
As a 33 year old 900 rated intermediate player. I can reach those distances from the tee (okay not the 444 but i can push 400 and be left with a 40-50 putt). I'll need to play ultra consistent to stay below par, and to me, maybe only me, that is fun.

FWIW, I have no idea what/where this course is.

That said, I completely understand your point, tho. Just not all courses need to provide a short/technical option. If there are other local options for short technical rated lower than 4.22, this courses rating is likely a clear indication which course/style the local players prefer playing.
I'm in the same boat. 35 year old, intermediate player that could (with proper execution of my skill under normal circumstances) get into the circle on 400' and under holes.

In areas of with lots of options; this kind of course can fit in well. The rec player isn't going to make many (if any) birdies here. That's doesn't mean it's necessarily a poor design.

That said, I like short holes just as much as long holes. A really well executed shorter hole can be really exciting and challenging. It appears that the designer of thise course had lots of land to work with and decided to use it. I'm sure this course would be a great spot for Touring Level Pros (1000+ rated guys) to be challenged and show scoring separation.
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:40 AM
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I'm saying that you can make a variety of lengths (including in the 250ish-320 range) of 1-shot holes, while catering to the same advanced level, while also providing good holes for an expanded skill set.

i.e., for higher skill levels, it might provide a good scoring spread that is tilted toward more birdies, and as you go down in skill set, it's still a good spread but eventually tilts more toward pars without getting stupid. And with "moderately wooded", there should be enough to work with that would produce a few bogeys for really bad shots -- without being stupid-tight.

I think Houck is famous for making very few 1-shot holes longer than about 340 (he'll have a token crush hole in the 360-370 range) ranging way down into the 200s, and I don't think most would argue that his shorter 1-shot holes are "too easy".
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Old 09-26-2014, 09:42 AM
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Also, knowing where this course is, I think it's a *philosophical* crime to design holes that don't make sense for 90% of the very large player base in this area. But at the same time, I'm sure that 99% of those players don't care one single bit.
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