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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
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  #3371  
Old 12-06-2018, 02:25 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disc.golf.jay View Post
Good thoughts. I was thinking more of an inverted CRP. Instead of asking, how close before two shots will get it done, ask, how far out when 2 shots is needed on average? Haven't really thought through why I prefer that approach... probably because I don't like par under 3. I'm biased toward every hole having a chance for birdies without an ace.
So if someone puts the tee where two good shots will get it done....? Even if a miss will result in a 4 rather than a 3?

I have no problem with anyone who does not like par 2s. Eliminate them if you want, just don't call them par 3s. It makes as little sense as someone who thinks there should be no par 6s simply lowering par on all their 1,500 foot holes to par 5.

The question of whether all holes should be birdieable is a design question, not a par question. In other words, the solution is to make the hole enough harder (based on errorless play; not by adding penalties) to justify the higher par, not to leave the hole too short and inflate par above the expected score.
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  #3372  
Old 12-06-2018, 06:31 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
The question of whether all holes should be birdieable is a design question, not a par question.
I disagree in so much as without 'par' there can not be 'birdie'. ALL holes (unless it's a 1par) can be birdied. Some are just a LOT easier to birdie than others. [This is what I think you're alluding to but you can't have birdie unless par is in the discussion.]
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  #3373  
Old 12-06-2018, 07:22 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Karl View Post
I disagree in so much as without 'par' there can not be 'birdie'. ALL holes (unless it's a 1par) can be birdied. Some are just a LOT easier to birdie than others. [This is what I think you're alluding to but you can't have birdie unless par is in the discussion.]
My point is that even if no one has ever scored one lower than par, that's not a sufficient reason to raise par.

An example is Beaver State Fling Presented by KEEN - National Tour 2017/Milo McIver East/ Hole 17. In 83 rounds of play by 1000ish-rated players, no 2s were recorded, but 82% of those players got a 3. That hole is par 3. It does not need to have any 2s at all to prove it is a par 3.

Is it birdieable? Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter.
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  #3374  
Old 12-07-2018, 07:52 AM
biscoe biscoe is online now
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What that hole is is inappropriate for the level of player playing it. Debating what par it is is like taking a chicken and debating whether it is a goose or a duck. it is most likely a blue par 4. For gold it is literally neither a par 3 or par 4 and whether you call it a ridiculously difficult par 3 or a ridiculously easy par 4 just depends on your method.

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  #3375  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:34 AM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
What that hole is is inappropriate for the level of player playing it. Debating what par it is is like taking a chicken and debating whether it is a goose or a duck.
John, I absolutely agree with this statement.

In fact, I agree with it so much, I wrote it in my most recent article for the PDGA magazine a couple weeks ago. I didn't use birds, but I did stay in the animal kingdom. I guess great minds...

Mr. West, or Mr. Kennedy, just so I don't get accused of plagiarism, would you please confirm that you read my article before it went to the printer last week?

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  #3376  
Old 12-07-2018, 08:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
John, I absolutely agree with this statement.

In fact, I agree with it so much, I wrote it in my most recent article for the PDGA magazine a couple weeks ago. I didn't use birds, but I did stay in the animal kingdom. I guess great minds...

Mr. West, or Mr. Kennedy, just so I don't get accused of plagiarism, would you please confirm that you read my article before it went to the printer last week?
Definitely read the mane parts....
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  #3377  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:28 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
What that hole is is inappropriate for the level of player playing it....
That may be true, but it's irrelevant. There is no threshold if inappropriateness which exempts a hole from having a par.

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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
For gold it is literally neither a par 3 or par 4 and whether you call it a ridiculously difficult par 3 or a ridiculously easy par 4 just depends on your method.
Well, it was literally a par 3 at this event because the TD said so.

The only "method" which would assign that hole par 4 is what I call Swedish Par: Take the score players expect to be able to get and add one.

What logic would you use to make it a par 4?
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  #3378  
Old 12-07-2018, 09:33 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrhouck View Post
....

Mr. West, or Mr. Kennedy, just so I don't get accused of plagiarism, would you please confirm that you read my article before it went to the printer last week?
Yes, and you know which line I was very tempted to quote in response to biscoe.
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  #3379  
Old 12-07-2018, 11:07 AM
Karl Karl is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
My point is that even if no one has ever scored one lower than par, that's not a sufficient reason to raise par. Why not? Just because they haven't doesn't mean they won't / it's possible.

[bold above is my quick response]

An example is Beaver State Fling Presented by KEEN - National Tour 2017/Milo McIver East/ Hole 17. In 83 rounds of play by 1000ish-rated players, no 2s were recorded, but 82% of those players got a 3. That hole is par 3. It does not need to have any 2s at all to prove it is a par 3.

Is it birdieable? Maybe, maybe not. Doesn't matter.
I think it does matter!

A few prefaces:

A lot of people TRY to make disc golf (dg) "different" than golf (bg) but precedence has been set - dg IS "golf".

As some others, I happen to be in the camp of par is NOT an "average" (of even the greatest players), therefore you can trick up a hole all you want and par, birdie, bogie, etc. will NOT change.

In bg, on a 3par, one can get an eagle (ace), birdie, par, bogie, etc., but albatrosses aren't (as zeros and minus numbers aren't). Any 'drive able 4par' is REALLY just a 3par usually fraught with danger that the tournament has set up as a 4par "for viewer's like", drama, and the like. Personally I don't like that they do such but that's just me. ALL 3pars can be aced...and, yes, some of these sham 4pars (that aren't REALLY 4's) can be also.

So working on the premise that all 3pars CAN be aced (remember we ARE golf!)...
...your brain can probably travel to all sorts of scenarios - and a lot faster than I can type on a silly phone with a stylus!

Therefore:
If a hole can't be aced, it's a 4par (or higher...determined by if it can't be "had" in 2, it's a 5par, etc.)
If a hole can be aced, it's a 3par.
If a hole isn't giving you the "scoring spread" or "challenge" or "...whatever..." you're looking for, PAR is not the problem. Design is! And thus I bow to Steve's post numerous posts prior (the one where he said something about it being a design issue).

But as I've said numerous times before: if JB, JH, myself, LL, and (name any other reputable designer) looked at 100 holes in person, the number of holes that we wouldn't agree on its par would probably be on 1 (maybe 2) fingers. Par is like that senator asked if he knew the definition of porn - and said he knew it if he saw it. Thus is par.

Have at it

Karl
Ps: This stylus stuff is for the birds
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  #3380  
Old 12-07-2018, 11:21 AM
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Disc golf appears to be a sport being designed and tweaked to fit the measurement metrics of another sport versus developing the sport then determining its own suitable measurement metrics. Seems like the tail wagging the dog or an inferiority complex that the sport could be legitimate on its own merits.

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