Go Back   Disc Golf Course Review > General Disc Golf Discussions > General Disc Golf Chat

View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #3901  
Old 07-20-2019, 10:47 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Creeping Creek DGC
Years Playing: 13.2
Courses Played: 219
Posts: 15,011
Niced 2,773 Times in 1,713 Posts
Default

SSA = 63
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #3902  
Old 07-22-2019, 07:17 AM
WilliamHill WilliamHill is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 2
Niced 3 Times in 2 Posts
Default

These questions don't stopping to appear.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
  #3903  
Old 07-22-2019, 10:18 AM
PMantle's Avatar
PMantle PMantle is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Alexandria, La.
Years Playing: 7.2
Courses Played: 48
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 5,037
Niced 821 Times in 561 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamHill View Post
These questions don't stopping to appear.
All your base are belong to us.

Reply With Quote
  #3904  
Old 07-28-2019, 03:59 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 45.4
Courses Played: 364
Posts: 4,954
Niced 1,671 Times in 820 Posts
Default

DGPT - Idlewild Open driven by Innova Discs & The Nati Idlewild DGPT FPO; 18 holes; Par 67


Attached Images
File Type: png IdlewildFPO2019.png (17.7 KB, 154 views)
Reply With Quote
  #3905  
Old 07-28-2019, 11:56 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 45.4
Courses Played: 364
Posts: 4,954
Niced 1,671 Times in 820 Posts
Default

FPO at Idlewild is a good case for those who say “fix the holes, not the pars”. Even if we did “fix” the pars (increase par in holes #5 and #18 to get to a total of 69) none of the players would have had an even par or under round. That’s too many bogeys to be any fun, even if the pars were correct.

So, how should the holes be changed? I decided to see how to change the holes so that the number of scores above par would be the same as the number of scores below par for the prototypical 930-rated FPO expert.

By looking at how the scoring distribution changes with rating of the player, we can get a good idea of how the scoring distribution would change if the hole was made easier. The scoring distribution of a hole played by a higher-rated player should be similar to the scoring distribution if the hole was made easier.

Once we find the scoring distribution we want, we can look at the resulting average score. If this is lower than the current average score for 930-rated players, we can calculate the number of feet shorter a hole needs to be made. On this course, 930-rated players averaged 1.95 non-distance based throws per hole, which leaves an average of 211 feet per distance-related throw.

For example, look at the par 4 hole #13. Here is the scoring distribution for 930-rated players:
3 23%
4 43%
5 22%
6 8%
7 5%
Which averages 4.29.

And here is the scoring distribution for a 940.5 rating:
3 28%
4 44%
5 18%
6 4%
7 6%
Which averages 4.16.

This translates into a (4.16 – 4.29) * 211 = 27 foot shorter hole to balance the number of 3s with the number of 5s, 6s, plus 7s.

The indicated change in length for all holes is:
Code:
1 =  +10      10 = -124
2 = -179      11 =  +98
3 =  -89      12 = -158
4 =  -64      13 =  -27
5 =  +31      14 = -113
6 =  -78      15 = -166
7 = -185      16 = -250
8 =  -72      17 =  -37
9 =  -52      18 =  -72
This would balance the number of 930-rated scores above par with the number below by making the course 7.23 throws easier and 1,527 feet shorter, and by raising par to 69 (#5 to par 4 and #18 to par 5).

However, this course has a lot of OB penalties: 3.55 per round for the FPO field. That’s about half of the total indicated softening.

So, what I would do first is eliminate all the OB penalties by turning all the OB into 806.04 Relief Areas.

If we subtract the OB penalties, (using the OB penalties for the field as an approximation of the OB penalties for a 930-rated player), and re-do the calculations, the resulting changes in length to create the same number of scores above and below par for 930-rated players would be:
Code:
1 =  +22      10 = -124
2 = -146      11 =  +98
3 =  -31      12 = -155
4 =  -15      13 =  +52
5 =  +98      14 =  -67
6 =  -75      15 = -166
7 = -123      16 =   +4
8 =  -72      17 =  +43
9 =  -52      18 =  -69
This would still make the course 7.23 throws easier, but 3.55 of that would come from reducing OB penalties, and 3.68 from shortening it by 778 feet.

Yes, the OB penalties would likely have more impact on reducing the scores that were above par, but I can't measure how much without hole-by-hole-by-player OB data. And that's too much work to do for fun.

I wouldn’t rush out and move all the FPO tee pads this much. There’s no rule that says scores above and below par need to be exactly equal, and I like to have a variety of hole difficulties. But these figures do indicate which holes might be the least fun or too easy. It also gives a target length for choosing among the existing tee pads. Or, for guidance in where to look for interesting alternate target locations.
Reply With Quote
  #3906  
Old 07-29-2019, 10:51 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 45.4
Courses Played: 364
Posts: 4,954
Niced 1,671 Times in 820 Posts
Default

DGPT - Idlewild Open driven by Innova Discs & The Nati Idlewild DGPT MPO; 18 holes; Par 68



I'd like to see par lower on holes #1, #8 and #13. But the par 5 on #16 is legit and there are no par 2s. Par of 65 would have been rated 1016 (vs. 997 for par 68) and par of 65 would have been 24th place (vs. 50th for par 68).
Attached Images
File Type: png IdlewildMPO2019.png (17.1 KB, 137 views)
Reply With Quote
  #3907  
Old 07-31-2019, 12:36 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 45.4
Courses Played: 364
Posts: 4,954
Niced 1,671 Times in 820 Posts
Default

Innova Baltic Tour - Alutaguse Open 2019 Mäetaguse Disc Golf Park Mäetaguse 2019; 18 holes; Par 64; 2,741 m

Someday, players in the MPO division may rise up and demand their own set of pars, no longer being forced to use pars that are appropriate for FPO. All it would take is for the TD to lower MPO par on holes 2, 3, 5, 11, 13, 15, 16, and 18.

Attached Images
File Type: png Alutaguse2019.png (32.0 KB, 113 views)
Reply With Quote
  #3908  
Old 07-31-2019, 02:31 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: spotsylvania, va
Years Playing: 24.4
Courses Played: 94
Posts: 6,566
Niced 1,947 Times in 816 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
On this course, 930-rated players averaged 1.95 non-distance based throws per hole, which leaves an average of 211 feet per distance-related throw.
How are you arriving at these 2 numbers?
Reply With Quote
  #3909  
Old 07-31-2019, 03:13 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 45.4
Courses Played: 364
Posts: 4,954
Niced 1,671 Times in 820 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
How are you arriving at these 2 numbers?
Linear fit of hole scores to hole lengths.
Reply With Quote
 

  #3910  
Old 08-02-2019, 07:48 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 45.4
Courses Played: 364
Posts: 4,954
Niced 1,671 Times in 820 Posts
Default

2019 Am Worlds courses, Advanced/Blue Pars



It would seem unlikely that a 712 foot hole should be par 3 for Advanced, but the numbers check out.



On the other hand, calling a 335 foot hole a par 4 is placing way too much faith in trees, I think.

Attached Images
File Type: png AmWorlds2019MA1.png (65.4 KB, 85 views)
File Type: png MR02.png (23.6 KB, 85 views)
File Type: png CSB07.png (23.7 KB, 84 views)

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Par 4s - multiple in a row or sprinkle par 3s into them? ToddL Course Design 9 02-23-2018 09:47 AM
Poorly designed par 4,5,and par 6 holes and bad high par courses optidiscic Course Design 159 09-12-2014 10:53 AM
Cgkdisc and jeverett talk about par Steve West Course Design 53 05-05-2012 08:37 AM
Deuce or die par 3's or play for par, par 3's? BrotherDave Disc Golf Courses 14 04-29-2011 12:04 AM
Par and Pro Par for multiple tees with different pars? marcusmpe General Disc Golf Chat 6 04-26-2010 06:13 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.