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Old 12-16-2014, 02:08 PM
jjpitt29 jjpitt29 is offline
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Default Ratings.... my apologies

Here is a question for those of you out there who love to talk about ratings. I had two leagues sanctioned this year. We did a 10 week spring session and then a 10 week fall session. I was very excited to have it sanctioned and get some ratings out of league. Make it a little more meaningful for some of us who play a lot. Here are the links to the "official" ratings

Spring - http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/17561
Fall - http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/19011

If you don't want to look at the results (yes, i'm not good) the overall take away is that the Fall league was 25 ratings points lower then the spring league. Which caused a few people's official ratings to drop. I really like the ratings as they compare players and skill. That has always been a strong point. But one thing I have always been bothered by is the subjectivity of the ratings on a round by round basis due to the people playing that tournament etc. But here you have mostly the same people playing with a few others coming and going throughout the summer.

I understand how ratings are generated and that the actual "course" doesn't really matter. But I just can't justify a 25 point difference from spring to fall on the same course under the same conditions. I will most likely not do sanctioning next year because of this not sure yet.

Opinions and or comments?
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  #2  
Old 12-16-2014, 02:50 PM
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jmhoekst jmhoekst is offline
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Yea, that's a big swing for the same scores on the same exact layout. Ideally, courses would have an established SSA and that would be the only thing used for rating rounds, but disc golf layouts change so frequently that we're probably never going to get to that point. It's an imperfect system; I guess I'll just have to play better.

Good thing NT registration isn't based on ratings, or this would be a bigger deal.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:06 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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It really isn't that big of a swing when you consider that it was essentially the same group of players in both leagues (not a lot of new propagator blood), but a handful of them were bringing higher personal ratings to the equation during the second session...none seemed to have had their ratings drop significantly.

One would expect that in having the same group of players play the same course week after week, the group's average score would decrease over time as they all improved. The repetition allowed them to better learn where the pitfalls to avoid and the sneaky lines to hit are on the course. So if the average score decreases, so does the SSA calculated from those scores. If the SSA goes down, so too do the ratings.

The "fix" is really in getting more new players out to this league, particularly propagators. The more propagators there are, and the more diverse they are, the less influence each player who plays every week is going to have on the calculations.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:14 PM
cjman cjman is offline
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^^nailed it.
My local league rotated between courses. Second rounds at courses saw lower average scores. I imagine they would continue to get lower if we played the same all ten weeks. You can even see this at a tournament between first and second rounds at a course.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:30 PM
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Timeetyo Timeetyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
It really isn't that big of a swing when you consider that it was essentially the same group of players in both leagues (not a lot of new propagator blood), but a handful of them were bringing higher personal ratings to the equation during the second session...none seemed to have had their ratings drop significantly.

One would expect that in having the same group of players play the same course week after week, the group's average score would decrease over time as they all improved. The repetition allowed them to better learn where the pitfalls to avoid and the sneaky lines to hit are on the course. So if the average score decreases, so does the SSA calculated from those scores. If the SSA goes down, so too do the ratings.

The "fix" is really in getting more new players out to this league, particularly propagators. The more propagators there are, and the more diverse they are, the less influence each player who plays every week is going to have on the calculations.
^ This.

Also to add, if the players are remaining relatively stagnant (score wise) but their ratings are going up from other tournies, the same score is going to lead to a lower and lower rated round.

Look at the #1 guy in open as an example.

First set he was rated 954. Shot an average of 49.25 which averaged a 993 rating.

Second set he was rated 968. Shot an average of 49.78 which averaged a 968 rating.

In theory, since his rating went up 14 points, we'd expect to see him shoot ~1.4 shots / round better to MAINTAIN that same rating. This is one of the reasons you see the same score generating a lower rating.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:31 PM
jjpitt29 jjpitt29 is offline
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I agree with getting more people to play would help. Having low numbers of propagators has always been a problem. I disagree however that it is a big swing. Your point of playing every week would allow scores to get better due to homie routes etc is a good one. Except for the fact we've been playing this course and league for years now. This was just the first time we sanctioned it. So, there was very little improvement to scores based on playing it each week. We don't have many courses in the immediate neighborhood to use for leagues.

When the fall league was made official and put into the personal ratings it dropped a few people. One guy had his rating drop 8 points. I understand if this was between rounds or even between tournaments. But you're using ten rounds on the same course. A 25 point rating swing is fairly ridiculous IMO.

**sidenote, looking through 10 years or so of tournament data the ssa on this course has been very consistently between 48-50. I did some rough math and on average the ssa comes out pretty darn close to 49 which is what I used for scratch for handicap purposes.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:33 PM
Agricolae Agricolae is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
The "fix" is really in getting more new players out to this league, particularly propagators. The more propagators there are, and the more diverse they are, the less influence each player who plays every week is going to have on the calculations.
Yeah, the gene pool in your community is barely ankle deep, so things are getting strange. Bring in some new blood.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:34 PM
jjpitt29 jjpitt29 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timeetyo View Post
^ This.

Also to add, if the players are remaining relatively stagnant (score wise) but their ratings are going up from other tournies, the same score is going to lead to a lower and lower rated round.

Look at the #1 guy in open as an example.

First set he was rated 954. Shot an average of 49.25 which averaged a 993 rating.

Second set he was rated 968. Shot an average of 49.78 which averaged a 968 rating.

In theory, since his rating went up 14 points, we'd expect to see him shoot ~1.4 shots / round better to MAINTAIN that same rating. This is one of the reasons you see the same score generating a lower rating.
So as a player gets better, he has to shoot better to maintain the same rating? Thats kinda like saying if you are a better shooter (basketball) you only get 2 points instead of 3 for hitting from long range?
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:37 PM
jjpitt29 jjpitt29 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Agricolae View Post
Yeah, the gene pool in your community is barely ankle deep, so things are getting strange. Bring in some new blood.
Agreed I think..... Some of the guys might take offense to that though, lol

We do have a hard time getting new players out to league. Even some of the guys who play a lot don't like coming to league. Been this way for a long time and we aren't quite sure how to change it. I've tried lots of things to get new players out, just haven't been very effective.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:37 PM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjpitt29 View Post
So as a player gets better, he has to shoot better to maintain the same rating? Thats kinda like saying if you are a better shooter (basketball) you only get 2 points instead of 3 for hitting from long range?
I think you missed the part of the explanation that said it's because you have a small pool of propagators. That leads to more statistical noise like this where a little weirdness leads to much bigger differences.
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