#31  
Old 06-12-2019, 02:59 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
Well when you're referring to a percentage paid out relative to entry fees - if the entry fees are only enough to cover PDGA fees, the percentage is relative to $0.00

Unless the PDGA does the math to include fees that go to the PDGA. Which I'm not sure of.
I honestly don't know, I had always thought there was a calculation that determined the gift amount at A vs B vs C etc. That is was in the tournament guidelines. Clearly, it isn't something that motivates me.
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  #32  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:00 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
There is a documentary that is out there (currently being released in chapters) about the history of NC disc golf.

The transition of the PDGA from Ed to the players is discussed.

8:31 mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkPC7Zf5olw

Thanks for posting this; really good watch.
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Old 06-12-2019, 03:03 PM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Thanks for posting this; really good watch.
The entire film is about an hour. It debuted at am worlds last year.

It's coming on in chapters each friday and then full documentary will be available.

it's really good.

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  #34  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:04 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
No lie. There weren't even disc golf bags. There were golf discs.

I remember getting an Innova baseball cap in like '96 or '97, cheap adjustable thing. I'd be on the course with it covered in sweat and have people offer me money for it. You never saw them. Merch was golf discs.
Okay, I just had to reply to this. Man, I remember those first hats, and I remember everyone trying to get one. Here in Texas, there was only one bag before Innova, Lightning's bag. I remember seeing players with those and the harness and thinking, "OMG, that is so cool."
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  #35  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:05 PM
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ChrisWoj ChrisWoj is offline
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Originally Posted by TimSyl View Post
Not sure where you're from, but I also have an amateur golf background. State events, and larger ones, NEVER had ANYTHING as a "players pack". In the 80s and 90s we paid anywhere from $60-125 for the right to play an event. And this was only if our handicap was low enough to qualify. If you won one of these events, you received a metal or trophy. And bragging rights. We did it for the competition. More regional type events were similar, but the top finishers may have gotten enough in gift certificates to get a dozen balls or a shirt from the pro shop. Those events usually were about $40-60 entry. At least some of the entry went for greens fees. So again, we played for the competition. I've only been playing disc for 12 years, but am still astounded how ams expect so much simply for entering an event. (I know this subject has been beaten to death here).
I think most Ams are demanding value for what they put in. A golf course is going to cost a lot more in terms of tangible upkeep that costs money, the players know where they're getting the value in the example of that golf course. Where we're talking about a city disc golf course, with public funds handling mowing and most upkeep - if you're going to charge a significant amount to play, you need to give the players value somewhere.
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  #36  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:07 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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In short I have an issue with the idea that there is no inherent value placed upon organized competition in and of itself by players, promoters, or the PDGA. There does not seem to be any other extant "sport" where this is the case.
I think this is the issue and as always we seem to run off on tangents. If I understand biscoe, it's the idea that Am's look at their entry fee and the payout, and if 100% of their entry fees are not in the payout they feel ripped off. So according to that math, EVERYTHING you provided other than the payout (easy registration, well maintained course, organized event that ran on time, water on the course, volunteers spotting and adding up cards to speed up the process, opportunity to compete, etc.) is valued at $0.

How did we get here? Why is the experience of playing competitive disc golf not worth anything? Why do we have to bribe people with the idea of winning their entry fee + to get them to show up? Was this by design, or was it an accident?

It would be cool to hear what the people who were involved at the time think about it.

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  #37  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:19 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
I think most Ams are demanding value for what they put in. A golf course is going to cost a lot more in terms of tangible upkeep that costs money, the players know where they're getting the value in the example of that golf course. Where we're talking about a city disc golf course, with public funds handling mowing and most upkeep - if you're going to charge a significant amount to play, you need to give the players value somewhere.
This I think is a significant point. We play disc golf for free. The discs are fairly cheap. $40 and you have a putter, mid and driver and off you go.

That creates a low bar. If I had to pay a $10 greens fee to play a causal round, I can pay $25 for some well-run competition and a trophy and it's only $15 more than I'd pay to play a round with my buddies. As it is, $25 for a shot at a trophy when that round with my buddies is free seems like highway robbery to people.

In short, people value playing disc golf at $0 because it costs $0.
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  #38  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:35 PM
TimSyl TimSyl is offline
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Originally Posted by ChrisWoj View Post
I think most Ams are demanding value for what they put in. A golf course is going to cost a lot more in terms of tangible upkeep that costs money, the players know where they're getting the value in the example of that golf course. Where we're talking about a city disc golf course, with public funds handling mowing and most upkeep - if you're going to charge a significant amount to play, you need to give the players value somewhere.
Understood. But even deducting the green fees, we players still didn't receive anything in return other than competition on a good course.
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  #39  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:37 PM
ThunderEagle ThunderEagle is offline
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
In short, people value playing disc golf at $0 because it costs $0.
I think we are seeing a change in this honestly. My area is overrun with sanctioned tournaments this year, and everybody's attendance is way down. Tournament that used to fill up a full 72 players with a waitlist are now pulling in 30-40 players. Entry fees ranging from 30-50.

I'm also involved in my home course's club, a legal non profit. It is actually for the entire park, but all of our members are disc golfers. I ran my first PDGA tournament this spring. It was the first of 4 tournaments we will have this year.

Where we make money for our club (as I'm sure most of you know) is the profit on the player's pack "value" vs what we pay for it, and also the profit on the discs that get selected and/or purchased as payouts.

I've been playing for just under 3 years. In that time, I've played in 21 sanctioned events. I don't need any more discs, towels, sport sacks, erasable score cards, etc. I DO like playing in well organized events on great courses. I DO find an inherent value in that. Currently, a club/TD cannot make a "profit" on entry fees. All of the value needs to be accounted for in terms of player pack value and payout, minus fees. I'd be perfectly happy paying $15 for a tournament where the club/TD got $10 a person, the rest fees, and we played for rating, glory and maybe a trophy.

Disc golf is growing, and the tried and true method of clubs raising money to put in more baskets, a new course, tee pads, etc is to run a tournament that moves a ton of plastic. You mentioned it cost $0 to play disc golf, and that is somewhat true, if you want to play competitive disc golf, you are probably spending $40 plus every tournament, when there is a tournament every weekend, that forces you to choose, and right now in my area, people are choosing one or two a month. If we had an option to make some money and not only through profit on plastic, maybe we could get everyone to choose 2 or 3 tournaments a month.

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  #40  
Old 06-12-2019, 03:39 PM
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TAFL TAFL is offline
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Originally Posted by ballgolfconvert View Post
One of the last rounds before playing again this year, was in an amateur tourney at Kentwood (Raleigh) in 1986. I think it costs me $2 to play and competition was the only reason to play. So amateur play has been around since at least then.
I think the first tourney I went to was in '86 and I played as an am. Cost me $5 for entry; the am winner got a couple of discs. I didn't join the PDGA, so have no idea if am memberships were supported at that time.

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