Go Back   Disc Golf Course Review > General Disc Golf Discussions > General Disc Golf Chat

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #81  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:29 AM
Emoney's Avatar
Emoney Emoney is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ
Years Playing: 11.1
Courses Played: 68
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,882
Niced 179 Times in 106 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorseymatt View Post
Again, this is actually not true. Making the basket larger would benefit the good putters even more, as it would accentuate the skill difference, rather than downplay it. They would make putts from longer and longer distances that lesser players simply could not pull off.
Look at it this way.
What is a good putt to you? To me, its center pole. Or any side just off center but part of the disc is still on the pole.
That catch radius is the same on the bullseye/marksman type basket.

The same "good putts" will still go in.

I just want the 50/50 putts to be more like 70/30 in favor of the basket kicking it out.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #82  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:30 AM
dorseymatt dorseymatt is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD
Courses Played: 13
Posts: 471
Niced 385 Times in 152 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorseymatt View Post
Again, this is actually not true. Making the basket larger would benefit the good putters even more, as it would accentuate the skill difference, rather than downplay it. They would make putts from longer and longer distances that lesser players simply could not pull off.
I actually want to walk this back a little. I'd read a study that said this was the result when increasing hole size in golf, but I read a study where they did a simulation, and it was shown to help amateurs more than pros. So maybe the jury is still out on this.
Reply With Quote
  #83  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:32 AM
DavidSauls's Avatar
DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newberry, SC
Years Playing: 24
Courses Played: 125
Posts: 14,832
Niced 2,875 Times in 1,308 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
What I find interesting in this discussion is the top pros are overwhelmingly against it it seems.

Make it harder to putt increases their chances of beating players with less skills than them. I don't understand why they wouldn't be in favor of it.
I'll take your word for it---not having seen a poll of them. But I'm not surprised. And I think it's something to keep in mind.

I don't see the top pros having trouble beating people with less skills, now. I doubt lowering the putting percentages---more long layups, fewer boring gimmes...and fewer dramatic long putts being made---has much appeal to them.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #84  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:32 AM
rhatton1's Avatar
rhatton1 rhatton1 is online now
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Years Playing: 12.2
Courses Played: 25
Posts: 843
Niced 425 Times in 176 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
What I find interesting in this discussion is the top pros are overwhelmingly against it it seems.

Make it harder to putt increases their chances of beating players with less skills than them. I don't understand why they wouldn't be in favor of it.
Because they think it would make the game less fun?

Marksmen would suit my putting style, I would gain strokes on my spin putting competitors because when I miss I'm always still within just about drop in range. I miss high or low unless I really mess up.

And yet I hate the idea of Marksman style baskets, they just make the game less fun. Less chance of a 150' throw in, less chance of an ace.

Currently I run most approaches from 200' and in with a clear objective to put them in the chains and a confidence I'll make the putt from the circle more times than I don't. (My rating obviously suggests i'm a bit of a fantasist in this regard...) Stick a marksman in there and suddenly I'm laying up all approaches. (I'd probably score a helluva better as a result!!)

It's not the putts players will layup, it's the exciting approach game that stops. The approach game is becoming a bigger and bigger part of Disc Golf as we move to more and more 4's and 5's. Let's reward players running the chains from way out. That's the golf I want to watch. I don;t want to see them slide discs up to the pole, take a drop in and walk away. I want to see the disc fly and preferably fly into the chains. Hitting those chains is one of the most addictive parts of the sport. Doesn't matter if you're a full time Pro at Worlds or a first time player, long throw ins give you that adrenaline burst that makes the game fun.

Reply With Quote
  #85  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:34 AM
dorseymatt dorseymatt is offline
Birdie Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Baltimore, MD
Courses Played: 13
Posts: 471
Niced 385 Times in 152 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emoney View Post
Look at it this way.
What is a good putt to you? To me, its center pole. Or any side just off center but part of the disc is still on the pole.
That catch radius is the same on the bullseye/marksman type basket.

The same "good putts" will still go in.

I just want the 50/50 putts to be more like 70/30 in favor of the basket kicking it out.
If you put the disc on the pole on a Marksman, you may make it, you may not. It's better than being wide, though, I'll give you that.

I guess I'd prefer to err on the side of 100% of good putts going in. That should be the most important criterion.
Reply With Quote
  #86  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:34 AM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
Flippy Flopper
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 26.1
Courses Played: 128
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 2,930
Niced 832 Times in 372 Posts
Default

Fun is relative and opinionated. I'm of the strong opinion that fun factor shouldn't be considered on the games top level.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #87  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:41 AM
rhatton1's Avatar
rhatton1 rhatton1 is online now
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Years Playing: 12.2
Courses Played: 25
Posts: 843
Niced 425 Times in 176 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
Rules / standards / playing surfaces are different in every single sport as you progress.

Football has different hash marks, different kick off points, different rules and even different number of players allowed.

Baseball has different innings played, pitch limits, different substitution rules and even different rules for whether a pitcher has to hit or not in the pro leagues.

Golf has different lengths of courses, faster greens and even different pars.

Hockey has different physicality rules and different period lengths.

Basketball has different rim heights, different defensive rules, different shot clocks.

Disc golf played at the amateur level has zero differences, rules wise, than the pro world championships. It's absolutely stunning when you think about it.

The clear solution is baskets should 100% be smaller at the top levels and then the standard size at the regional professional level and down. This takes out every argument about the cost of changing every basket in the world.

9 year old football players don't kick off from the same spot as the pros, yet pros and 9 year olds in disc golf use the exact same basket.
But why should they be smaller what problem does this fix? It's said so often they should be but I've never seen good evidence that bigger baskets make the game worse or smaller baskets would make it better.

Soccer goals are smaller for kids than pros, so are cricket stumps, so are rugby posts. Golf holes are the same size for professional tour events as for the kid playing the first time, they'll play from a different tee though. The analogy doesn't work, well actually the golf one does....

The clear answer for me is make Pro Worlds courses good enough to hold the Pro Worlds. Have Gold or even Black tees in play where AMs would be playing Blues. Play it on courses that play 1000 plus rated to par and leave the baskets alone. Make better courses. There are courses like that coming, lets make more of them and run our top comps at them.

Reply With Quote
  #88  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:45 AM
_MTL_ _MTL_ is offline
Flippy Flopper
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Raleigh, NC
Years Playing: 26.1
Courses Played: 128
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 2,930
Niced 832 Times in 372 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rhatton1 View Post
The clear answer for me is make Pro Worlds courses good enough to hold the Pro Worlds. Have Gold or even Black tees in play where AMs would be playing Blues. Play it on courses that play 1000 plus rated to par and leave the baskets alone. Make better courses. There are courses like that coming, lets make more of them and run our top comps at them.
I agree, that is the clear answer.

But that doesn't mean it's going to happen.

There's only so many places in the world with the combination of stuff needed to host a pro worlds.

The place that has multiple of these courses also has have to the club infrastructure to host this, the ability to fund raise, a TD and top level staff able and qualified to run the event, city / park support, a hotel that can host, and multiple other logistical things.

And then even if you have a place with the ability, you still have that same place be full of people that are willing to do so.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #89  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:46 AM
Emoney's Avatar
Emoney Emoney is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Tucson, AZ
Years Playing: 11.1
Courses Played: 68
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,882
Niced 179 Times in 106 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dorseymatt View Post
If you put the disc on the pole on a Marksman, you may make it, you may not. It's better than being wide, though, I'll give you that.

I guess I'd prefer to err on the side of 100% of good putts going in. That should be the most important criterion.
Ok. Lets forget "marksman and bullseye". Just an example of the size of basket.
The baskets we have now are not 100%. So in your eyes , we need a change?!?
Reply With Quote
 

  #90  
Old 04-02-2019, 11:50 AM
XC_Eddy's Avatar
XC_Eddy XC_Eddy is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Escanaba, MI
Years Playing: 11.9
Courses Played: 26
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 699
Niced 647 Times in 314 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by _MTL_ View Post
Rules / standards / playing surfaces are different in every single sport as you progress.

Football has different hash marks, different kick off points, different rules and even different number of players allowed.

Baseball has different innings played, pitch limits, different substitution rules and even different rules for whether a pitcher has to hit or not in the pro leagues.

Golf has different lengths of courses, faster greens and even different pars.

Hockey has different physicality rules and different period lengths.

Basketball has different rim heights, different defensive rules, different shot clocks.

Disc golf played at the amateur level has zero differences, rules wise, than the pro world championships. It's absolutely stunning when you think about it.

The clear solution is baskets should 100% be smaller at the top levels and then the standard size at the regional professional level and down. This takes out every argument about the cost of changing every basket in the world.

9 year old football players don't kick off from the same spot as the pros, yet pros and 9 year olds in disc golf use the exact same basket.
I do agree that if smaller targets are going to be used, it should only happen at the top levels. You are correct that this takes the $$$ argument out of the equation. DGPT, PDGA, or Manufacturers would likely be willing to provide and switch out baskets. I don't want it to become extra work for volunteers. I do think if the pros were playing on smaller baskets, more Ams would want to do so at their local courses, too. I think it's awesome that us amateurs putt on the same baskets as the pros.

Even then, I still think changing the size of the basket is too big a change. The examples you used from other sports are more comparable to the types of changes that already happen between an AM casual round and a Pro Major: Longer holes, different tee pads, hazards, lots of OB, OB near the green, water carries, elevated baskets, mandatories, walls, and even hay bales in inconvenient locations are all modifications to the pro course layouts that make the game harder for pros than for Ams or Juniors. Course design can be modified for players of different skill levels. This is why good courses have multiple tee positions and pin locations: to accommodate players of different skill levels on the same course. This why courses are modified when the pros come to town.

Yes, the basket height and 3-point line are adjusted in professional basketball. These adjustments are more akin to elevating the basket and expanding the 10m putter circle than changing the target size. Pro basketball players don't shoot into a smaller hoop. Nor do pro golfers putt into a smaller hole than casual golfers. Heck some sports even go the other way: in professional soccer the goal is bigger and harder to defend than at your local Saturday youth soccer league.

So yeah, adjustments should be made for pro events that distinguish them from am events. I argue that this is already happening by altering course layouts. The rules don't need to be different between the Ams and Pros. Changing the basket size is too big a change, alters the fundamentals of disc golf too much.

The other question I have is why is there a push for making putting harder? Is putting really that easy? Pros miss 25'-30' foot putts with regularity. Do proponents of this plan want 10'-15' putts to be more stressful? As a spectator, I find there to be a good amount of drama in pro putting as is.

If pro targets are going to get shrunk, they have to catch better than the darn marksmans.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is putting too easy? too hard? Just right? BirdieMachine General Disc Golf Chat 363 01-29-2017 07:35 AM
To those of you without your own baskets, how do you practice putting? Jmorri67 General Disc Golf Chat 32 06-03-2013 11:25 PM
If only baskets were this big =D Bamm General Disc Golf Chat 18 04-24-2011 05:09 PM
Night Putting Is Just Too Easy! juanbond General Disc Golf Chat 12 06-13-2010 01:58 PM
Check out new article on better putting stevep Technique & Strategy 3 11-28-2009 09:14 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.