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  #151  
Old 04-03-2019, 07:34 PM
Karl Karl is offline
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Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
I disagree. Good putts of all descriptions can get turned upright and go straight through many older baskets- those manufactured by DGA in particular. There is no putting style immune to it. Eliminating that feature is an improvement.
I'll have to disagree with your disagreeing John . I think you're trapped in the mindset (as are most players) of 'hit the deflection device, win a prize'...and are miffed if it cuts through / deflects out / etc. If the putt is on a downward trajectory into the basket - so that if there were no center pole and chain assembly, the disc would not fly out past the back rim of the basket - it WOULD be "immune to it".
Now you can argue this is an inefficient putting style at greater distances, is too soft for high wind conditions, etc., but give it its props - it IS a viable "solution" (and one which would not incur cut-throughs.
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  #152  
Old 04-03-2019, 08:32 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by Darkgreen View Post
I'm not saying it is totally random and completely unfair. I'm saying there is too much randomness and unfairness to what you suggest. It looks like we disagree on how much randomness and unfairness is acceptable. I tired to give you an example of tree kicks and how I think the amount of randomness is acceptable compared to the benefits of having trees. Even though you espouse some benefits to your suggestions (and I do see them) I think the amount of randomness and unfairness outweighs those benefits by a large margin.
Tree kicks aren't random. Don't hit the tree. If you do hit the tree, the direction and distance are dependent on the speed of the disc, and the position of the impact. It's very much like a cut shot in pool. Many things that folks like to call random, that are due to their own errors, aren't random at all.

The human body has physical limitations. Some holes are so tight that they exceed the physical limitations of an accomplished disc golfer. But a smarter disc golfer will break such holes down and play them a chunk at a time. Other players will go balls to the wall, but they know their skill will allow them to overcome the "randomness" in the out come of their poor decision. If the disc ends up being unplayable, that isn't random, it's due to their poor risk evaluation. Truth be told, we don't properly punish folks for poor risk evaluation, IMO.

Even a putt that rims off, turns over, landing on it's edge, and rolling away, isn't random. It happened because the putter took a shot that either they weren't capable of or weren't capable of at the moment. That is risk and skill assessment.

I see disc golfers take shots that a golfer, in a difficulty equivalent situation, would never take. They will take a measured putt that is meant to put their ball in the hole, but in which the ball will stop close to the hole if they miss. Disc golfers don't do this. They run it with no thought to what's behind the basket. If you over putt in a risky situation, the out come isn't random, it's what you've earned.

Nate Sexton accounts for this. He plays what many call conservative and boring golf. He will lay up within his skill set. Doing that made him one of the top golfers in the world, even though he doesn't have the raw skill or power of a McBeth or a Wysocki.

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  #153  
Old 04-03-2019, 08:38 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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PMB shot -18 twice. How many times does that happen in ball golf? (I have no idea btw...) I really don't see how anyone who follows the sport doesn't agree that putting is really the only thing we can address in this sport. Everything else is pretty much locked in and I don't see how you could change it. Smaller baskets, eliminating jump/step putts would go a long way imop. I think ultimately both of these points will be addressed before the sport goes nuclear on the pro level. As far as the cost of changing up the baskets, the am side of things can stay the same, and so can 99% of all courses. Just change up the pro elite level courses.
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  #154  
Old 04-03-2019, 09:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Tree kicks aren't random. Don't hit the tree. If you do hit the tree, the direction and distance are dependent on the speed of the disc, and the position of the impact. It's very much like a cut shot in pool. Many things that folks like to call random, that are due to their own errors, aren't random at all.

The human body has physical limitations. Some holes are so tight that they exceed the physical limitations of an accomplished disc golfer. But a smarter disc golfer will break such holes down and play them a chunk at a time. Other players will go balls to the wall, but they know their skill will allow them to overcome the "randomness" in the out come of their poor decision. If the disc ends up being unplayable, that isn't random, it's due to their poor risk evaluation. Truth be told, we don't properly punish folks for poor risk evaluation, IMO.

Even a putt that rims off, turns over, landing on it's edge, and rolling away, isn't random. It happened because the putter took a shot that either they weren't capable of or weren't capable of at the moment. That is risk and skill assessment.

I see disc golfers take shots that a golfer, in a difficulty equivalent situation, would never take. They will take a measured putt that is meant to put their ball in the hole, but in which the ball will stop close to the hole if they miss. Disc golfers don't do this. They run it with no thought to what's behind the basket. If you over putt in a risky situation, the out come isn't random, it's what you've earned.

Nate Sexton accounts for this. He plays what many call conservative and boring golf. He will lay up within his skill set. Doing that made him one of the top golfers in the world, even though he doesn't have the raw skill or power of a McBeth or a Wysocki.
Tree hits are going to happen. It doesn't matter if you say don't hit the tree. They are still going to happen. At every level. And players don't have the control to decide how they will hit a tree, otherwise we would see them doing it to their advantage on purpose in certain situations, and we don't see that. One person is going to hit a tree and it will land in the middle of the fairway or careen down the fairway while another person hits a tree and it careens off into some thick bushes. There is luck. There is randomness. But as I said, we need trees for shot shaping. I don't see the necessity for your suggestions.

Same thing with your putt that rims out and rolls away. If they all did that then I wouldn't have an issue, but they don't. Some sit, some roll. It is random.

I understand what you are saying about risk evaluation. That doesn't mean their isn't randomness and luck and unfairness.

In your example of over putting, there is already a punishment for missing even without the OB. One stroke. If you miss by running really hard at the basket you also get punished on your come backer more distance than someone that misses by putting soft or lofting at the basket. You think they should get punished more. I get that. I understand why you think that, but I think a whole stroke penalty is too much, especially when there is already a punishment that slowly increases with every bit of extra force that a player uses to run at the basket. Isn't that something that you like? Does not a player have to do that risk assessment? Isn't skill then tested on that comeback putt equal to the amount the player risked and failed in his shot?

As far as not punishing people for poor risk evaluation, I disagree. There are guys on the tour right now that get burned for their poor decisions. Simon comes to mind.

Your example of going balls to the wall on a hole and then a guy being able to recover vs a guy breaking a hole apart and playing safer. 1) I would say great! Multiple ways to play a hole. And we see that on the tour. I love that variety. 2) Isn't scrambling also a skill that we want to see tested and rewarded if done successfully?

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  #155  
Old 04-03-2019, 10:22 PM
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BrotherDave BrotherDave is offline
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  #156  
Old 04-03-2019, 10:41 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
PMB shot -18 twice. How many times does that happen in ball golf? (I have no idea btw...) I really don't see how anyone who follows the sport doesn't agree that putting is really the only thing we can address in this sport. Everything else is pretty much locked in and I don't see how you could change it. ...
Well, par is pretty easy to change. If par had been set based on the play of 1000-rated players, Paul's rounds would have been -15 and -12. Those are in line with the really incredible under par scores in golf.

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  #157  
Old 04-04-2019, 04:55 AM
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rhatton1 rhatton1 is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Tree kicks aren't random. Don't hit the tree. If you do hit the tree, the direction and distance are dependent on the speed of the disc, and the position of the impact. It's very much like a cut shot in pool. Many things that folks like to call random, that are due to their own errors, aren't random at all.
To take this on a step is anything truly random? a butterfly flapping it's wings etc.

When it comes to Disc Golf, tree hits 300' off the tee are for all intents and purposes random to every level of golfer and as such an uncontrollable element. It's not the same as playing for a sloped landing on a golf green where there is a much larger target to aim at and less variables to control ( I hit a tree one cm to the right and ricochet 50' into the woods, I hit 2 cms to the left and I park the basket - that's for all intents and purposes random)

Reducing the randomness should be something we strive for. With that in mind I'm generally against too many basket positions on slopes, especially extreme slopes where one persons rubbish missed putt lands on the bank and sticks and another persons putt that is almost perfect, hits chains, drops out and rolls 60' away and leads to a two stroke "penalty"

I'm even more against it when the roll can lead to OB (if all rolls led to OB I would be less against it although I would probably not like the hole) These sort of design elements I suspect we will see disappear more and more as course design evolves to reward the consistent best plays and takes on Chucks ideas of granularity of scoring more and more.

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  #158  
Old 04-04-2019, 05:19 AM
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rhatton1 rhatton1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
PMB shot -18 twice. How many times does that happen in ball golf? (I have no idea btw...) I really don't see how anyone who follows the sport doesn't agree that putting is really the only thing we can address in this sport. Everything else is pretty much locked in and I don't see how you could change it. Smaller baskets, eliminating jump/step putts would go a long way imop. I think ultimately both of these points will be addressed before the sport goes nuclear on the pro level. As far as the cost of changing up the baskets, the am side of things can stay the same, and so can 99% of all courses. Just change up the pro elite level courses.
There are so many other things we can do and should do and more importantly will do as the sport evolves.

The whole field could shoot 18 under on lots of courses out there. Those courses shouldn't be used for top tournament play. If they are used and the score to par is seen as such an issue, set the par correctly like Steve West advocates (I'm personally more of the camp that the par score doesn't really matter until we set better courses) .

The putting and size of baskets are not the biggest issue or you wouldn't have courses that can play 1000 rated or more to par and yet players still come off them feeling they have had a fun and fair round.

Genuinely I think we are just about finding the peak potential driving distances for players in this generation of disc golfers. You have athletes now with ideal body shapes, balance and flexibility that have been playing since they were children. We aren't going to see controlled no wind drives on flat ground over 200 meters on a regular basis in the future, even if the technology improves again, we are finding the technological limit within the PDGA specs.

We've found a good level and the top courses can now be built to that level from the back tees.

The modern baskets are way better at producing a level, fair and non fluky putting field than the old ones were. This argument of "well you had to have touch with the old ones is rubbish, touch putts still bounced out from the bottom of poorly formed trays or still spat off the center pole, ie good putts missed. On all outings so far on the Prodigy T2's I've been installing and running comps on I am yet to see a single putt that I would call "good" miss. Weak putts left and right often slide off chains, and that's great, they weren't good putts, everything on the line of the pole sticks.

This coupled with courses that challenge the best players will solve most perceived problems and also coupled with something I suspect we will see happening more - Obstacles of one form or another on and around both the greens and also around the landing zones of par 4's. These will be our equivalent of golf bunkers Possibly bushes like Laurel maintained so they are less than 3' tall, creating a stance issue but still playable from, possibly roughened surfaces making run ups difficult or some other variable that will create fractions of a stroke scoring separation, not full strokes which is always the issue with OB.

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  #159  
Old 04-04-2019, 07:13 AM
Hyzflip10 Hyzflip10 is offline
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We can't possibly control all variables out on the course, otherwise we are just talking about Tom Ingle's Discolf.

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  #160  
Old 04-04-2019, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Hyzflip10 View Post
We can't possibly control all variables out on the course, otherwise we are just talking about Tom Ingle's Discolf.
Genuinely I really like the sort of planting by the greens that features in a lot of his made up holes! https://www.discolf.com/ small thick obstacle evergreen trees creating interest and difficulty around the greens. Land one side for an unobstructed putt, the other side will take some stretching but still be achievable whilst testing other skills.
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