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View Poll Results: McBeth vs. Climo
McBeth 124 62.31%
Climo 75 37.69%
Voters: 199. You may not vote on this poll

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  #201  
Old 05-10-2019, 05:28 PM
discgolfdillydilly discgolfdillydilly is offline
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Let’s just say, McClimo...
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  #202  
Old 05-11-2019, 11:01 AM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by shakatak View Post
Elway? Seriously?
Yes. Seriously.

Actually watched the games; I'm not just blinded by statistics .
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  #203  
Old 05-11-2019, 03:17 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Originally Posted by Ryan C View Post
I agree. I recently watched the 2001 USDGC on youtube and the lead card is Barry, Ken, and people with about 325' max power.
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Originally Posted by Chaz58 View Post
The competition today is much tougher than it was 15 to 20 years ago. I look back and see guys like Barry Schultz and maybe a Feldman (is he old enough to have gone that far back?) as Climo's toughest competition on a semi-regularly basis. Over time some of the courses have gotten a bit harder to play as well, especially the wooded courses as those trees continue to grow and new ones get bigger.
Those are opinions, and I understand why you have them. Someday, 20, 25 + years in the future, you'll be the older guy trying to explain to some younger guy how great McBeth was before that guy was even born. Every generation has the same issue.

I've seen them play. In person. You've watched videos that someone else has edited. I know for a fact that Ken Climo in his prime could throw 450' when he needed to. And that was primarily with an Eagle as the fastest, most overstable driver. Not internet distance; what's been seen/witnessed.


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Originally Posted by nrihan View Post
I got back and watch old Worlds vids and his competition is a joke minus one or two people. A lot harder to win Player of the Year these days, I would think. Wins would also be harder to come across when golfing against other 1030+ rated golfers. How many different 1030 rated golfers did Climo ever have to beat?

Climo is the greatest ever, PM is the best ever.
Not sure I understand the difference .. "best ever" vs "greatest ever", so clarify if you wish. But to answer your question about the ratings of the players he played against, the answer is we don't know. Climo already had 8 World Championships, 6 Player of the Years, and was in his 30s before ratings were invented.

But even going back just one decade past -- Champ won four of his five USDGCs in the 2000s decade, during the time Doss, Avery, Feldberg were winning Worlds. He also shot the 1117-rated round in 2009, after his 40th birthday. McBeth's accomplishments can't compare, certainly not yet, because Paul's not that point in his career yet. In truth you cannot really compare eras -- that's always the case in all sports. What you can compare is the athlete's dominance over his contemporaries.

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  #204  
Old 05-13-2019, 11:51 AM
nrihan nrihan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Those are opinions, and I understand why you have them. Someday, 20, 25 + years in the future, you'll be the older guy trying to explain to some younger guy how great McBeth was before that guy was even born. Every generation has the same issue.

I've seen them play. In person. You've watched videos that someone else has edited. I know for a fact that Ken Climo in his prime could throw 450' when he needed to. And that was primarily with an Eagle as the fastest, most overstable driver. Not internet distance; what's been seen/witnessed.




Not sure I understand the difference .. "best ever" vs "greatest ever", so clarify if you wish. But to answer your question about the ratings of the players he played against, the answer is we don't know. Climo already had 8 World Championships, 6 Player of the Years, and was in his 30s before ratings were invented.

But even going back just one decade past -- Champ won four of his five USDGCs in the 2000s decade, during the time Doss, Avery, Feldberg were winning Worlds. He also shot the 1117-rated round in 2009, after his 40th birthday. McBeth's accomplishments can't compare, certainly not yet, because Paul's not that point in his career yet. In truth you cannot really compare eras -- that's always the case in all sports. What you can compare is the athlete's dominance over his contemporaries.
Greatest ever= Most accomplishments against contemporaries
Best Ever= On any given day,the most skill and the best golfer. Better athlete.


To say it again, today's fields are so much more stacked with consistently good players. Paul's win rate against today's field is still more impressive to me than Climo's dominance. In today's game, we actually have many people touring full-time. I don't know how many people toured full-time back then, even KC. The courses are tougher and longer than ever, with more OB than ever, making even the most skilled 1000+ rated players (which there are plenty of nowadays) look human. Meanwhile, Mcbeth's name is at the top, week after week.

Even going back to the early 2000's, the competition is steeper, but not like it is now. Climo won USDGC's during this stretch which is impressive, but I still think that for the majority of his career, he played against much lesser competition.

I said earlier this year to my brother that I would take the field over Mcbeth in every tournament because the field is getting so stacked with talent. Boy, was I wrong. Mcbeth is still beating most everyone. The more rounds, the more likely he is going to finish on top.
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  #205  
Old 05-13-2019, 12:12 PM
TimSyl TimSyl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Yes. Seriously.

Actually watched the games; I'm not just blinded by statistics .
Put down the pipe.

Why not add Brian Sipe? Or Vince Ferragamo? (exaggerated names for effect).

Other than you and Elways family, NO ONE else thinks he's the GOAT.
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  #206  
Old 05-14-2019, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by TimSyl View Post
Put down the pipe.

Why not add Brian Sipe? Or Vince Ferragamo? (exaggerated names for effect).

Other than you and Elways family, NO ONE else thinks he's the GOAT.
Elway at the top of his game was the best I have ever seen but he was much less consistently at the top of his game than many others. Brady=GOAT.
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  #207  
Old 05-14-2019, 11:19 AM
Dcinmd Dcinmd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Elway at the top of his game was the best I have ever seen but he was much less consistently at the top of his game than many others. Brady=GOAT.
I don't think Elway was even the best of his draft class. I think Marino was much better. As a second year player Marino threw for 5,084 yards and 48 TD.

Elway career high was 27 TD passes. And threw over 4,000 yards once.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...E/ElwaJo00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...M/MariDa00.htm

I might agree that John was better in the 90's.

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  #208  
Old 05-15-2019, 08:43 AM
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rhatton1 rhatton1 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
All considerations as well. My contention is that players improve more rapidly than they decline (barring injury) and that there are more improving players than declining ones. Player ratings differing from course to course is obviously a thing but i don't know that it is germane to this particular question.
I suspect the same as this. I would be really interested to see if anyone has looked into this one way or the other?

We have seen a considerable ratings deflation in the UK in the last 10 years as we have very few stable more experienced players. Most of our PDGA players are newer and developing quickly and most of our comps are closed pools without many external propogators, it's meaning we're having to work harder and harder to hang on to the ratings we had let alone improve on them!

Looking at leagues played at the same course over the last 4 years with the same layout and spread over 10 weeks so taking into account different weather:

2019 - currently playing at about 920 rated to par will probably increase to 925ish as the course gets a bit tougher in the next month with growth.
2018 - played at around 930 rated to par
2017 - played at around 950 rated to par
2016 - played at around 960 rated to par


Having played in all years of the league I've had to get better and better to just stand still!

we tend to find travelling US players shoot rounds below their rating when they play in our comps over the last couple of years and players from quick growing European countries (eg. Iceland/Estonia) tend to shoot above their ratings.

All this suggests to me that ratings deflation is a very real thing in areas of rapid growth, especially if those pools are generally closed to outside competition. I'd imagine it is amortised out over a worldwide scene but my suspicion is there has been more ratings deflation than inflation especially with longer tougher courses coming on tour where incredible rounds don't get rated too highly. There are a lot more of these now than 10 years ago and as Chuck has said many times ratings on a 54 - 60 par course will vary from those on a 60 - 70 par course. The more long courses get played the more players will have to work to get higher ratings.

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  #209  
Old 05-17-2019, 05:48 PM
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Monocacy Monocacy is offline
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Interesting:

Quote:
Ricky Wysocki’s 2016 average was a hair shy of Ken Climo’s from 1998. But, to be fair, that 1998 performance by "The Champ" at 2.6 would still have put him in first every year except 2017, when Paul McBeth shattered course records while averaging 2.5 over the first two rounds. For that matter, Scott Stokley’s (PDGA #3140) first two rounds in 1994, at 2.7, bests or ties the majority of years, including last year.
DeLegacy: History & Changing Scores Of The Masters Cup

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  #210  
Old 05-19-2019, 02:06 PM
araytx araytx is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dcinmd View Post
I don't think Elway was even the best of his draft class. I think Marino was much better. As a second year player Marino threw for 5,084 yards and 48 TD.

Elway career high was 27 TD passes. And threw over 4,000 yards once.

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...E/ElwaJo00.htm

https://www.pro-football-reference.c...M/MariDa00.htm

I might agree that John was better in the 90's.
Quote:
Originally Posted by araytx View Post
Yes. Seriously.

I actually watched the games; I'm not just enslaved by statistics .
FTFM.
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