#21  
Old 11-14-2018, 03:44 PM
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The difficulty in changing the lost disc rule is resolving all of the issues with items like OB, Missed Mandatory, Abandoned lie etc. to make sure that declaring lost is not an advantage to avoid a different rule. When the next lie is consistent between all of those (e.g. lie is limited to previous lie), then there is no gaming of the rules. They all result in the same penalty/lie. With a strong push by some to reduce penalties, this introduces other complexities and players will try to leverage one rule when another is more appropriate. That ultimately is what makes it difficult in changing the rules for any of these. The impact on other parts of the rules needs to be considered.
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  #22  
Old 11-14-2018, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
T. . . when the game itself is supposed to be fun with minimal to no unnecessary punishment.
Do you ascribe to this same sentiment in tournament play?

I come from a competitive sport background that I would sum as incorporating fairness as a "level playing field." I.e., what is fair is that everyone play by the same rules. Beyond that, there are few legitimate "fairness" issues. Your approach seems to be "don't punish people for their lack of skill, this game is about fun." That may be an overly simplistic description of your philosophy, but there is no fairness issue in applying the lost disc rule to a lost disc. Why should anyone be concerned about applying an established penalty for losing a disc when losing the disc is solely the fault of the person who lost it. And for goodness sake, please stop claiming that losing a disc is, itself, a penalty.

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Old 11-14-2018, 06:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Doofenshmirtz View Post
Do you ascribe to this same sentiment in tournament play?

I come from a competitive sport background that I would sum as incorporating fairness as a "level playing field." I.e., what is fair is that everyone play by the same rules. Beyond that, there are few legitimate "fairness" issues. Your approach seems to be "don't punish people for their lack of skill, this game is about fun." That may be an overly simplistic description of your philosophy, but there is no fairness issue in applying the lost disc rule to a lost disc. Why should anyone be concerned about applying an established penalty for losing a disc when losing the disc is solely the fault of the person who lost it. And for goodness sake, please stop claiming that losing a disc is, itself, a penalty.
Absolutely, tournament play. There are judgment calls all of the time in other sports, especially with officials. Just saying that the Fairness doctrine allows players/groups and TDs to make judgments when the situation is not spelled out exactly in the rules.

Yes, a lost disc is a penalty for all but sponsored pros who have an arsenal of backups. Even then, many have favorites without direct backups. If they lose the disc for a re-throw, the hole, round or forever, it's a penalty beyond a single throw. Ball golfers aren't forced to throw their 5-iron in the water when their ball lands in the water. If they did then maybe our rule would be parallel. But I'd like to think our game play is better than ball golf.

But the RC, designers and TDs have progressively gone down the rabbit hole of more penalties in the game. If competition rules were more stringent than the game rules, then fine. But the powers that be seem afraid to separate the game rules from the competition rules even though many sports have more rigid equipment specs and courses for competition. Even ball golf recognizes this and are making progress to simplify their rules and reduce penalties.
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Old 11-14-2018, 08:03 PM
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Soccer could benefit from our Fairness rule:
"Coin flips are a pretty essential part of sporting events, trivial and forgotten as they may seem. But what happens when you forget the coin itself? If you're David McNamara, an English Football Association referee who oversaw a recent Women's Super League match between Reading and Manchester City, you get creative. You break out some rock, paper, scissors.

That's exactly what McNamara did when he realized he'd left his coin in the dressing room during that match's pre-kickoff toss. And as ESPN's Chris Wright reported, his spontaneous alternative turned out to be a direct violation of a Football Association rule. Law 8 of International Football Association Board rules states that "a coin" must be used to determine which team gets to choose its side before each match. That's why, as of this week, McNamara has been suspended 21 days for his actions. The referee has since accepted the suspension, saying his decision to have team captains Steph Houghton and Kirsty Pearce go at it with their hands was "not acting in the best interests of the game." (Cody Benjamin - CBSports)

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Old 11-15-2018, 09:38 AM
curmudgeonDwindle curmudgeonDwindle is offline
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
But the RC, designers and TDs have progressively gone down the rabbit hole of more penalties in the game. If competition rules were more stringent than the game rules, then fine. But the powers that be seem afraid to separate the game rules from the competition rules even though many sports have more rigid equipment specs and courses for competition. Even ball golf recognizes this and are making progress to simplify their rules and reduce penalties.
It seems that what we observe here are reflections of changes in the greater part of society as a whole. Golf was a game that arose in an 'honor' culture, which has a wide range of implications for one's behavior in life and golf. The simplification of rules, et. al., results from simple market pressure - not a fundamental shift in our ideas about the sanctity of the game or what the game 'means' to us...

Except for some situational hold-outs, we no longer live in an honor culture. Or to put it more bluntly, those that cannot control themselves, will ultimately be controlled by some authority. While it may seem ridiculously impractical, say in the case of the rock-scissors-paper penalty example, it is valid to recognize the changes in people's deportment which lead to the desire for more formal controls via rule-making.

In my disc golf experience, folks are very forgiving and even somewhat encouraging - except at the top levels or when a competitive reward is at stake. This means people at differing levels are playing for different reasons with differing goals.
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  #26  
Old 11-15-2018, 10:25 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
The difficulty in changing the lost disc rule is resolving all of the issues with items like OB, Missed Mandatory, Abandoned lie etc. to make sure that declaring lost is not an advantage to avoid a different rule. When the next lie is consistent between all of those (e.g. lie is limited to previous lie), then there is no gaming of the rules. They all result in the same penalty/lie. With a strong push by some to reduce penalties, this introduces other complexities and players will try to leverage one rule when another is more appropriate. That ultimately is what makes it difficult in changing the rules for any of these. The impact on other parts of the rules needs to be considered.
So, by that logic, we should change the rule so that discs which are obviously lost in an OB area should be played from the previous lie. Right?
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Old 11-15-2018, 10:59 AM
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So, by that logic, we should change the rule so that discs which are obviously lost in an OB area should be played from the previous lie. Right?
I would not say that. There is a difference between when the status of a disc is certain and when it is uncertain.
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Old 11-15-2018, 12:20 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
I would not say that. There is a difference between when the status of a disc is certain and when it is uncertain.
OK, but given that the disc cannot be found, is it ever really certain?

What part of an OB lake does it need to hit to be certain? How near to the edge where it might have skipped under the boardwalk is "uncertain"?

Right now, the rule says "if there is compelling evidence". That's not certainty. Would you change it to "if there is certainty"?

Going the other way, if "compelling evidence" is good enough for playing it as OB, why isn't that good enough for playing it from, say, the middle of the area that was most intently searched.
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Old 11-15-2018, 12:47 PM
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To me compelling evidence would provide for certainty. If it was uncertain, then the evidence was not compelling enough.

The precise location of a disc OB is not germane to determining the next lie. When a disc is presumably in an inbounds space, it's precise location is very much needed to determine the lie.

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  #30  
Old 11-15-2018, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
To me compelling evidence would provide for certainty. If it was uncertain, then the evidence was not compelling enough.

The precise location of a disc OB is not germane to determining the next lie. When a disc is presumably in an inbounds space, it's precise location is very much needed to determine the lie.
Under the new OB option the TD can offer where the player can mark the disc at the closest point inbounds to its location, the group will sometimes have to make a judgment on where the disc is located in the water.
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