#71  
Old 12-20-2016, 11:03 AM
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krupicka krupicka is offline
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I guess you think we should all be playing barefoot then...
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  #72  
Old 12-20-2016, 11:36 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
I guess you think we should all be playing barefoot then...
Yeah, I know.

Somehow, putting your shoe in mud seems like part of the game, but pulling a Sir Walter Raleigh does not.
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  #73  
Old 12-20-2016, 11:44 AM
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zenbot zenbot is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Yeah, I know.

Somehow, putting your shoe in mud seems like part of the game, but pulling a Sir Walter Raleigh does not.
I understood the reference in context but never knew it was attributed to one person.

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'Accordingly, she fixed her keen glance on the youth, as she approached the place where he stood, with a look in which surprise at his boldness seemed to be unmingled with resentment, while a trifling accident happened which attracted her attention towards him yet more strongly. The night had been rainy, and just where the young gentleman stood a small quantity of mud interrupted the Queen's passage. As she hesitated to pass on, the gallant, throwing his cloak from his shoulders, laid it on the miry spot, so as to ensure her stepping over it dry-shod. Elizabeth looked at the young man, who accompanied this act of devoted courtesy with a profound reverence, and a blush that overspread his whole countenance. The Queen was confused, and blushed in her turn, nodded her head, hastily passed on, and embarked in her barge without saying a word."



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  #74  
Old 12-20-2016, 02:24 PM
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iacas iacas is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
As I said, Golf rules are irrelevant, and I don't know them.
They're not irrelevant IMO. They inform how a very similar sport has handled similar situations. Disc golf is based heavily on golf and golf's rules - seeing how they handled something similar is relevant.

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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
I would think the umbrella thing has more to do with a caddie not assisting, than the umbrella. Either way, what the rules of golf says don't matter. Same goes for clothes.
You can't position the umbralla over you (unless you're holding it yourself). You can't set it on a cart and position it over you, wedge it into a tree to stay over you, etc. Just as you can't position a bag to shade the ball. It doesn't actually have much to do with the caddie at all, but about the umbrella assisting you while making a stroke.

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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
I see nothing in the rulebook to stop me from putting my back foot on my bag or a stack of my discs, as long as I still make contact with my lie. In any case I would suspect that would hinder my throw more than assist me in making it.
You're putting a disc or whatever beneath your supporting points because it assists you. If it didn't assist you, you wouldn't need to do it.

There may be a case for using a disc to stop abrasions of the back foot or knee, but I'm not convinced of that either as none of the listed examples (tape, gloves) are at all like a disc.

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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
I find it really, really strange that people are arguing that it's OK to put a disc on the lie, something that is literally disallowed in the rules, while arguing that you cannot use a disc under a supporting point not on the lie, which there is no mention of in the rules at all.
That's how you're reading things. I think the most accurate statement is that both are unclear, and I'm inclined to rule against using a disc on your supporting points.

In practice I'd probably never even use a disc on my lie as it doesn't compress fully all the way around (as you are saying). I'd use a towel, a plastic sandwich bag, or nothing at all.

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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
And why would you need a definition of "Equipment"? Do you think there is any gray area at all in what constitutes a players equipment?
There can be lots of grey areas. Is a pencil part of your equipment? The scorecard? What about an umbrella? What if you're sharing it with someone, or a spectator is carrying it for you but left it in the ground and it deflects someone else's disc OB? How about if someone else is getting your bag and returning it to you - whose equipment is it then, or is it "equipment" at all?

Admittedly "equipment" comes into play more often in golf because disc golf rules seem to care less about discs deflected by someone's equipment and similar things, but in golf the definition is:

Quote:
Equipment

"Equipment" is anything used, worn, held or carried by the player or the player's caddie, except:

- any ball that the player has played at the hole being played, and
- any small object, such as a coin or a tee, when used to mark the position of the ball or the extent of an area in which a ball is to be dropped.

Note 1: A ball played at the hole being played is equipment when it has been lifted and not put back into play.

Note 2: Equipment includes objects placed on the course for the care of the course, such as rakes, while they are being held or carried.

Note 3: When equipment is shared by two or more players, the shared equipment is deemed to be the equipment of only one of the players sharing it.

If a shared golf cart is being moved by one of the players sharing it (or his partner or either of their caddies), the cart and everything in it are deemed to be that player's equipment. Otherwise, the cart and everything in it are deemed to be the equipment of the player sharing the cart whose ball (or whose partner's ball) is involved.

Other shared equipment is deemed to be the equipment of the player who last used, wore, held or carried it. It remains that player's equipment until it is used, worn, held or carried by the other player (or his partner or either of their caddies).
You can see there that the same ball can be both equipment and an outside agency on the same hole depending on its status (is it marked and picked up, or flying through the air, or what?).

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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
OK, I think we've chewed up and spit out the existing rule and found it to be less than 100% clear.
Agreed. The current rule is unclear in two ways.

1. Should the item be compressible only where it touches the lie, under the entire supporting structure (i.e. your whole foot, even if just your toe is on the lie), and should it be compressible with your body weight alone?

2. Can you put anything else under other supporting points, or can you only place something under the body part that touches your lie?

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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
I don't think it is in keeping with the general theme of the game to be playing from anything other than the playing surface. In my opinion, placing a towel (or anything else) on the lie (or anywhere else) to provide a nicer place to put a supporting point should not be allowed.

I could go along with an exception for tee pads. Tees are already artificial and supposed to be "nice". You can clear them, so I could see allowing something to provide traction on the tee pad.

But, on the fairway you should have to deal with where you threw it. Or, take a re-throw or optional relief if you don't want to cut your knee open.
I'm inclined to agree, and it has the benefit of not having to worry about many of the points above.
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  #75  
Old 12-20-2016, 03:50 PM
hellbound hellbound is offline
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What happens when you land in a bed of cactus needles? Sharp Shards of rock? Briers? All things that we as disc golfers have had to play thru. Taking a knee with a towel or disc help more for abrasion. I could be down for no use on a tee pad.
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  #76  
Old 12-20-2016, 07:12 PM
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iacas iacas is offline
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Originally Posted by hellbound View Post
What happens when you land in a bed of cactus needles? Sharp Shards of rock? Briers? All things that we as disc golfers have had to play thru. Taking a knee with a towel or disc help more for abrasion. I could be down for no use on a tee pad.
You threw it there. And you're not obligated to kneel, either.
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  #77  
Old 12-21-2016, 02:26 AM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
They're not irrelevant IMO. They inform how a very similar sport has handled similar situations. Disc golf is based heavily on golf and golf's rules - seeing how they handled something similar is relevant.
They may be relevant in how to form or change the rules of disc golf, and in discussions of how they should be, but not how to interpret the existing rules.
The fact of the matter is, that you cannot point to anything in the current rules, that would or should prohibit a player from touching or standing on his equipment. If that is assisting, the putting with you bag on the back, is also illegal. I think you lot have a messed up way to define "directly assisting with making the throw".
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  #78  
Old 12-21-2016, 11:10 AM
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iacas iacas is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
They may be relevant in how to form or change the rules of disc golf, and in discussions of how they should be, but not how to interpret the existing rules.
What can I say? I disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
The fact of the matter is, that you cannot point to anything in the current rules, that would or should prohibit a player from touching or standing on his equipment.
I think it's been pointed out in this thread. You disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
If that is assisting, the putting with you bag on the back, is also illegal. I think you lot have a messed up way to define "directly assisting with making the throw".
The rules care more about your lie, your supporting points, etc. than they do whether you have a bag on your back.

And a bag on your back is different in the same way you can putt while holding an umbrella over your own head, but someone else cannot do it for you (and you can't stick it in your cart or wedge it in a tree to be over you while you're taking your shot). Golf also lets you wear spikes (plastic or otherwise), but you can't put a towel down on the ground to stand on. You can putt out with a tee between your teeth, but you can't tee off with a tee under your left armpit because the purpose of that is to help you with your swing.

Again, if the disc doesn't assist you in making the throw, don't put it there.
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  #79  
Old 12-21-2016, 02:22 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
They may be relevant in how to form or change the rules of disc golf, and in discussions of how they should be, but not how to interpret the existing rules.
The fact of the matter is, that you cannot point to anything in the current rules, that would or should prohibit a player from touching or standing on his equipment. If that is assisting, the putting with you bag on the back, is also illegal. I think you lot have a messed up way to define "directly assisting with making the throw".
So, anyone can stand on the seat of their cart to throw over a tall bush?
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  #80  
Old 12-21-2016, 04:31 PM
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ejvogie ejvogie is offline
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Originally Posted by JoakimBL View Post
You can place an item on the lie, as long as you can compress said item to 1cm or less. Not part of the item, but the entire item. Nowhere does it say that said item needs to be compressed at the time of release. Where do you READ anything else?

Nowhere does it say "entire item".

Can we all just agree that the rule is ambiguous and move on?

What about the rule stating benefit of the doubt goes to the player?
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