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View Poll Results: Putting is?
Putting is too easy, narrower basket would be nice on challenging courses 84 17.43%
Putting is about right, keep the basket size 383 79.46%
Putting is too hard, Make the baskets bigger 15 3.11%
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  #231  
Old 12-22-2016, 11:20 PM
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iacas iacas is offline
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It's just a matter of how much emphasis you want to place on putting.

In golf, stats show us that driving and approach shots account for about 65% of the separation between any two groups of players (i.e. if you have scratch golfers that average 74 and 10 handicappers that average 84, 6.5 strokes will be lost due to the full swing). 20% or so from the short game. 15% or so from putting.

Disc golf doesn't really have a "short game" so maybe the majority of that gets folded into putting - so you have roughly 2/3 of the game for the "shots" and 1/3 for "putting" - IF your target size played as effective as in golf.

In golf, if you make the hole 10' across, basically any ball anywhere on the green will go in, and the percentage separation between players drops. Someone who used to gain 1.5 strokes per round putting against some other opponent is now going to gain close to zero, because the hole is so big anyone can make a putt from anywhere.

As you shrink the size of the hole, the better putter gains a growing advantage - until you get to the point where the hole is too small. Maybe that's 2", maybe it's 3" or the 4.25" we have now… nobody really has measured that side of things. It might not even level off per se - it might flatten out slightly but continue to increase: a 2" hole may benefit those who have the best speed control and green reading and line control.

But generally speaking, the larger the target, the less advantage good putters have over poor ones.

Right now on the PGA Tour:
- Players average about 1.5 putts from 8'. From only 8', they're basically 50/50 to one-putt. That's pretty short.
- From 33', players average 2.0 putts. They're as likely to make as they are to miss. (About 4% of each, 92% to two-putt.)

Putting from various distances in golf looks like this: https://cl.ly/3h0d2N2s3V2F (it's a bigger image so I won't embed).

Now, the trick to determining whether DG targets should be made smaller is simply a matter of doing two things:
  • Making a chart like the one above for, say, 1040-rated players, 1000-, 900-, and 800-rated players.
  • Determining whether you like the chart or not - and if not, what changes basket size would have. Generally, increasing the basket size is going to lead to more putts made and less "separation" from good putters to bad.

That's likely true for the same reasons as in golf - if the basket were huge - nobody would miss from even 20'. Pros would make a few more 70 footers than ams, yes, but how often are they 70' out, and so how many opportunities per round would they have the chance to exercise that advantage? Bigger baskets = less separation, generally speaking.

I honestly don't know what DG's curves would look like. In golf, the hole is SO small that there's not a ton of separation. I think that if the hole were 6" in diameter, that might be the ideal size if you were looking to maximize separation. Good putters would make a lot more from 10' and 15', while poor putters would make barely any more putts. Just an opinion.

In DG, is the basket size right at the sweet spot where putting separates players the right amount?

I don't know.

John Houck talked about how he hates areas from 100-180 feet as well as the 20' or 25' around the basket, because he feels those are basically 2.0 and 1.0 strokes for good players. They don't lead to any separation among good players, and I'd imagine most regular players can get up and down from 120' almost at the same rate as pros.

On the face of it, those distances seem too big. Some tournaments don't even show people putting once everyone's inside 10' - they just let you assume those are gimmes. 10' is pretty far away, and yet at the same time it's pretty close, and most DGers can make those putts the vast majority of the time.

Perhaps as others said above there's more to it than that. Perhaps a DG basket shouldn't necessarily be installed vertically: perhaps, at the discretion of the course designer, a tilt of up to 20° would/should be allowed? Maybe the answer isn't to change the basket or target size at all, but to more clearly emphasize putting from a preferred angle?

I'm not a big fan of the three posts or poles every 120° because someone could be four feet to my left or right and have a completely different looking putt. If the basket was angled 20°, though, those four feet would only slightly change the angle of the putt.

Imagine a basket leaning directly toward you - all you can see (almost) is the top of the basket. Your opponent, who knew the basket slanted this way and played accordingly - sees a much bigger target.

That seems to me to be perfectly fair (everyone plays the same holes), while still increasing the challenge AND reducing the size of that "2.0" zone where two shots is a foregone conclusion.

That said, DD just had a tournament with their Marksman baskets on the course for two days, and IIRC, it affected scores by 2-9 shots. That seems about right, and it lead to more people trying to get their approaches closer. Yes, it lead to more two-putts, but it also pushed the advantage back to those who could truly park shots. Nowadays, if even an 850-rated player gets within 15' or 20', they're feeling pretty good about their chances.

So what's my final opinion? I don't have one. I'd want to see the plot curves for makes, and then debate whether that placed enough, too little, or just the right emphasis on putting. I'd want to consider other options like allowing baskets to be installed/designed on a slant.
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  #232  
Old 12-22-2016, 11:34 PM
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Dan Ensor Dan Ensor is offline
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Too hard. Upshots aren't competitive enough. I wouldn't necessarily make the baskets bigger, though.
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  #233  
Old 12-23-2016, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Or it's a Titan basket.

You can throw too softly on some of the X chained baskets, where it doesn't get to the pole and chains don't give in enough to let the disc fall in the tray.

I've been hearing more of this lately. Do you think, in the effort to make baskets more "catchy," they've made bounce outs of soft putts more common?
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  #234  
Old 12-23-2016, 12:23 AM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Putts are too easy IMO. You can design the green to make the putt as easy or hard as you want it to be, with the right funding. Putting, like fairway design, can be used as a talent separator. Currently, we don't do this much. However, the few courses where we do, are very popular with viewers and players alike. DeLa being the easiest to know.
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  #235  
Old 12-23-2016, 12:27 AM
Inverted Inverted is offline
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Get rid of chains entirely. Have only baskets.

Now you would have to control not only line, but also speed and arc.
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  #236  
Old 12-23-2016, 01:18 AM
ILUVSMGS18 ILUVSMGS18 is offline
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I know that I will probably get trolled for saying this, but we should modify the greens to be more of a factor into how hard a putt is. Changing a baskets angle reletive to the ground sounds like a good idea as well, but I don't see either of those ideas as valid options for under 900 rated players.
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  #237  
Old 12-23-2016, 06:34 AM
tampora tampora is offline
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Can anyone devise a change that would make in-the-circle putts harder, yet make outside-the-circle putts easier? I think that would solve some things.

Last edited by tampora; 12-23-2016 at 06:37 AM.
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  #238  
Old 12-23-2016, 06:44 AM
tampora tampora is offline
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Behold, my power of mspaint!

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  #239  
Old 12-23-2016, 09:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tampora View Post
Behold, my power of mspaint!

Except it doesn't look like that. See the URL:
https://cl.ly/3h0d2N2s3V2F

I'm curious what the curves would look like for disc golf.

P.S. I know you were mostly joking around. Ha ha.
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  #240  
Old 12-23-2016, 12:56 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tampora View Post
Can anyone devise a change that would make in-the-circle putts harder, yet make outside-the-circle putts easier? I think that would solve some things.
Done.

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