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View Poll Results: Putting is?
Putting is too easy, narrower basket would be nice on challenging courses 84 17.43%
Putting is about right, keep the basket size 383 79.46%
Putting is too hard, Make the baskets bigger 15 3.11%
Voters: 482. You may not vote on this poll

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  #271  
Old 12-24-2016, 11:26 AM
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iacas iacas is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
It shouldn't be expected, since most of the time, pros miss from 60'.
At what rate? Where's their true 50/50 distance?

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
The 60 foot putt into a bull's-eye will be more impressive, but a 60' lay-up won't be. If you make the risk of missing a comeback putt too great, players won't run the basket from distance nearly as often.
I posted above about the "excitement" or "impressive" parts of golf and disc golf. The exciting part should be truly parking a disc by the basket, OR holing a loooong putt. Right now that "long putt" distance is close to 60', and "parking it" is anything inside of about 20' for the game's best. Why not shrink that to 10' or so for a "gimme" and make a 40' putt a "long putt" that will be just as exciting?

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
(1) At what short distance will a putt be uncertain enough to avoid, and (2) at what distance will a long putt, if missed, end up at that uncertain distance, and (2) will those odds exceed the chance of making the long putt.
There's a bit more to it than that, though.

Except for bad roll-aways, how often does a good disc golfer three-putt? Almost never. They have no fear of running putts on reasonably flat terrain because even if they have 20' coming back it's basically a gimme.

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Would you rather have excitement at 60' but boredom at 20', or boredom at 60' but excitement at 20'?
There's more to excitement than putting. A pro "parking" a disc at 20' is not exciting, but basically results in two throws (total) these days.

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Originally Posted by tampora View Post
While my 2 second art showed linear graphs and the URL you linked showed quadratic graphs, I was concerned with qualitative similarity of both graphs always increasing to the right.
The disc golf chart will not increase at nearly the rate that the golf chart does, though. It may never get as high as the golf chart, because from 8' golf is 1.5 strokes for pros, while from 8' disc golf is nearly 1.0 strokes. The disc golf chart should start off very very flat, and then rise from there.

They may cross at some point, but in golf I limited the putting to 100 footers, and that's 2.45 for golf. I don't think that even in disc golf you'd see 2.45 from 100 feet.

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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
If there's a danger of missing the comebacker---because we've made putting tough enough to put 15 footers in doubt---then they'd be foolish to run at the basket, take a 2% chance of a make for a 30% chance of a 3-putt (or whatever the odds turn out to be).
Ideally we'd have actual data so we wouldn't have to resort to making up stats.

And yeah, that's where some of the drama comes from - do you run a putt in an attempt to make it, leaving yourself a chance of missing the come-backer? It may depend on the situation. Two down with two to go? Maybe you run it. One up with two to play? Who knows… Maybe you leave the hole one up, tied, or even one down?

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Originally Posted by mizunodave View Post
Small basket scenario:

Player one, upshot to 20 feet.
Player two, upshot to 50 feet.
Player two misses leaving a drop in for par.
Player one also misses because the basket is so small leaving a drop in for par.
No scoring separation to show that player one played the hole significantly better.
Ah, made up anecdotal "evidence" combined with an incredibly small sample size.

If P2 is as good a putter as P1, he'll win out in the end. If P2 is only slightly worse a putter than P1, he'll still win out in the end if he's better approaching/driving.
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  #272  
Old 12-24-2016, 11:39 AM
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Bardu Bardu is offline
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  #273  
Old 12-24-2016, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
At what rate? Where's their true 50/50 distance?
Steve West posted a little while back that, with some actual statistical evidence, it's between 25 and 30 feet.

I don't know if that's true---I'd have guessed 35-40 feet. I'm also not sure if he was talking about 1000-rated pros, or the very top pros.
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  #274  
Old 12-24-2016, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by iacas View Post
I posted above about the "excitement" or "impressive" parts of golf and disc golf. The exciting part should be truly parking a disc by the basket, OR holing a loooong putt. Right now that "long putt" distance is close to 60', and "parking it" is anything inside of about 20' for the game's best. Why not shrink that to 10' or so for a "gimme" and make a 40' putt a "long putt" that will be just as exciting?


There's a bit more to it than that, though.

Except for bad roll-aways, how often does a good disc golfer three-putt? Almost never. They have no fear of running putts on reasonably flat terrain because even if they have 20' coming back it's basically a gimme.
They're rarely going to 3-putt, anyway.

They don't now because when they run long putts, they're confident that their misses will still leave them in comfortable comeback range.

Take away that comfortable comeback range, and they won't 3-putt, they'll just be more wary of going for long putts.

*

It seems there are 4 zones: (1) Gimme zone, where putts are almost automatic, (2) Good percentage zone, where the most of the scoring separation occurs, (3) low percentage zone, where players can steal a stroke with a good putt, but are unlikely to lose one with a miss because it'll land in zone 1, and (4) desperation zone, where the wise move is just to lay up, because the odds that a miss lands in zones 2 or 3 and results in a 3-putt are greater than the odds of make the putt from zone 4. (This is where the player trailing by a few strokes late in the match gambles).

Changing the percentages changes the distances, so it changes the distances for the borders of all of these zones. We still end up with them.

Reducing Zone 1 is the benefit of making the target more difficult. Zone 1 is boring.

Bringing Zone 3 closer is less dramatic. Much less for spectators---though I'm in the camp that theoretical spectators don't matter. I'm not sure it's as much fun for players, either.

Bringing Zone 4 closer is boring.

Putting more premium on precision drives and long approaches---hitting smaller Zone 1s and 2s---is a benefit.

These seem to me to be the pros and cons of more difficult targets, and it's a matter of whether the pros outweigh the cons, and by enough to justify a change. And in weighing that, we have to ask what the goal is---spectator disc golf, or participation disc golf. Would it really be more fun for everyday players?

My opinion is that it depends on how much more difficult. I'd love to see baskets a bit smaller than the current ones, but not dramatically.

My wish is that the advocates would run more test events, and see how it affects scoring, scoring spread, strategy, and player enjoyment. The trick is that it's easier to do this with smaller events---in fact, I think the PDGA would love it if people did---than for events with top players.

But it's all theory until someone moves from the keyboard to the course, and tries it.
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  #275  
Old 12-24-2016, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post

My wish is that the advocates would run more test events, and see how it affects scoring, scoring spread, strategy, and player enjoyment. The trick is that it's easier to do this with smaller events---in fact, I think the PDGA would love it if people did---than for events with top players.

But it's all theory until someone moves from the keyboard to the course, and tries it.
Kirk Yoo (proponent of smaller basket) ran a PDGA event in SC a week or 2 ago on the Marksman baskets. End result of that was he had all the baskets up for sale within a day or two due to their inability to catch "good" putts.

While I do not agree that baskets need to be harder (I too play on a lot of challenging greens and I too believe the result is just more laying up) I do agree that making them smaller vertically is likely the way to go. For one thing it would be easy to do with nothing but a drill.
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  #276  
Old 12-24-2016, 12:42 PM
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Were those uncaught putts "good" in the eyes of the players---accustomed to wider baskets---or Kirk's observations?

Of course, even if the former, player preferences will play a big part in any changes. There's a limit to how much you can do if the players don't want it. (If the top pros want it but few others do, the trick is doing it in a big enough event that the top pros will show up).
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  #277  
Old 12-24-2016, 12:42 PM
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But kudos to Kirk for actually trying it.
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  #278  
Old 12-24-2016, 12:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Were those uncaught putts "good" in the eyes of the players---accustomed to wider baskets---or Kirk's observations?

Of course, even if the former, player preferences will play a big part in any changes. There's a limit to how much you can do if the players don't want it. (If the top pros want it but few others do, the trick is doing it in a big enough event that the top pros will show up).
Judging from FB I would say both- no real reason Kirk's opinion is more valid than that of the other players anyway.

I think I'll go out right now and drill a few more holes in one of my basket poles- what the hell. If it seems like it works maybe I'll use a shorter basket for a hole or 2 at the VTI where there is no real money involved and there will be lots of high end players. The problem with doing it for an event or 2 is that there is not enough sample to see whether it actually changes player behavior. They aren't just going to start laying up outside of 30 feet the first few times out.

Last edited by biscoe; 12-24-2016 at 12:54 PM.
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  #279  
Old 12-24-2016, 01:51 PM
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I only think Kirk's opinion is more valid if he's TD, not player, so he's watching with some detachment.

Players whine about baskets, no matter what they catch.
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  #280  
Old 12-24-2016, 02:09 PM
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If you shorten the height of the chains it will just advocate 'speed putting' more so (even more so hitting a "target" instead of tossing a disc into a basket)...as the 'window' for a lofted putt will be a wee smaller. Is that what we think will improve the game??
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