#31  
Old 09-05-2018, 07:08 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 22.4
Courses Played: 152
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,964
Niced 3,975 Times in 1,639 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by philstine View Post
And if it's NOT on a playing surface, e.g., suspended between two stacked playing surfaces (like stuck in the substructure of the bridge on hole 8, Buckhorn)?
I wasn't really trying to address discs not on a playing surface (definitely a greyer area), but I'd say you have it fairly well covered in your post prior to mine. The rules would seem to indicate that the default on a disc not on a playing surface would be to play it from the surface below its position unless there is no playing surface below it.

Add it to the list of things the rules committee should clarify for the next edition of the rule book.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-05-2018, 09:49 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 46
Courses Played: 387
Posts: 5,189
Niced 1,900 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
. The rules would seem to indicate that the default on a disc not on a playing surface would be to play it from the surface below its position unless there is no playing surface below it.
Not really. And, even if it is the default, if a player wanted to mark on the playing surface above the suspended disc instead of below, there's nothing that proves they can't.

The only rule that expresses a preference for "below" is the two-meter rule. If the two-meter rule is not in effect, or the suspended disc is not more than two meters above the surface, nothing else says whether to mark it on the surface below or the surface above.

(Farther down the rabbit hole, even if the two-meter rule is in effect and the disc is stuck more than two meters above the ground under a bridge, if I mark it on the bridge, then my disc would not be subject to the two-meter rule, so the preference for below still does not apply.)

As to clarification; has a disc ever actually been suspended under one playing surface and above another? If the rules try to cover all these situations, they'll get as thick as golf's.

I could live with a few rare cases where the rules shrug and say "whatever". The next tournament held on that course should cover it in the players meeting or caddy book as a special condition.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-05-2018, 10:06 AM
krupicka's Avatar
krupicka krupicka is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Naperville, IL
Years Playing: 18.9
Courses Played: 72
Posts: 1,316
Niced 304 Times in 167 Posts
Default

This a place where the rules are lacking.
Let's explore this a bit more. We have 6" deep casual water under a bridge which is three feet in the air. Disc is floating on the water. Is the water surface a playing surface? Is the disc suspended above the playing surface? What if the disc is touching dry ground (clearly a playing surface).

Does the player have the option of marking the lie straight up onto the bridge? I would contend no for both cases (clearly floating vs sort of floating).
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-05-2018, 10:18 AM
DavidSauls's Avatar
DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newberry, SC
Years Playing: 24.9
Courses Played: 127
Posts: 15,533
Niced 4,215 Times in 1,739 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
As to clarification; has a disc ever actually been suspended under one playing surface and above another? If the rules try to cover all these situations, they'll get as thick as golf's.

I could live with a few rare cases where the rules shrug and say "whatever". The next tournament held on that course should cover it in the players meeting or caddy book as a special condition.
I wholeheartedly agree with this.

It might be useful if, in a few places the rules referred to "a playing surface" rather than "the playing surface." Particularly the suspended disc. I don't know, I'd have to look and think about it.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-05-2018, 11:21 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 46
Courses Played: 387
Posts: 5,189
Niced 1,900 Times in 930 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
This a place where the rules are lacking.
Let's explore this a bit more. We have 6" deep casual water under a bridge which is three feet in the air. Disc is floating on the water. Is the water surface a playing surface? Is the disc suspended above the playing surface? What if the disc is touching dry ground (clearly a playing surface).

Does the player have the option of marking the lie straight up onto the bridge? I would contend no for both cases (clearly floating vs sort of floating).
Let's see.

Quote:
The playing surface is a surface, generally the ground, which
is capable of supporting the player and on which a stance can reasonably be
taken. A playing surface may exist above or below another playing surface.
If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the
Director or by an Official.
The water cannot support the player, so it's not a playing surface. If the disc is floating, it's definitely not on a playing surface. But, is it above one? Is the bottom of the creek a playing surface? I'm not sure the rules should answer that question. If it's a concrete bottom, maybe. If it's 5 feet of mud underneath, probably not.

Oh, there's a phrase to cover that: "If it is unclear whether a surface is a playing surface, the decision is made by the Director or by an Official."

Only after you say whether the bottom under this water is a playing surface can you say whether the floating disc can be marked up on the bridge.

I'm not sure what more could be added to the rules about playing surface. Only the TD knows the weird parts of the course.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-05-2018, 11:58 AM
krupicka's Avatar
krupicka krupicka is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Naperville, IL
Years Playing: 18.9
Courses Played: 72
Posts: 1,316
Niced 304 Times in 167 Posts
Default

But if the bottom of the casual water is not a playing surface, then no player would be allowed to play from casual water. That seems to go against everything else in how casual water is treated.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-05-2018, 12:12 PM
IHearChains IHearChains is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Years Playing: 16
Courses Played: 173
Posts: 641
Niced 192 Times in 88 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Wouldn't the burden be on finding a rule that says you can choose a different playing surface?
If I say you can't play in smelly shoes, is the burden on you to find a rule that says you can?
I'm just being facetious here, but the point is, the absence of a rule allowing something doesn't automatically define it as prohibited.

Anyway I'd like to be able to point to a rule that specifically addresses some situations involving stacked playing surfaces. That way when cardmates dispute a ruling, it gets resolved more quickly without hard feelings, no provisionals and without taking it to the TD later.

As you argued elsewhere in the thread, casual water surface is not a playing surface. So the below Q&A ruling appears to be relevant if a disc is below a playing surface, and is suspended in casual water by weeds or grass or just floating.

QA-STA-3: Inside the culvert is not a playing surface, but the hillside above it is. If the TD has not provided guidance on how to handle discs entering these culverts, then players can mark on the hillside directly above their disc with no penalty.

If the disc has sunk to the bottom of the casual water, then that may be a different scenario since you could say it's on a playing surface.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-05-2018, 02:03 PM
philstine philstine is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Courses Played: 20
Posts: 221
Niced 184 Times in 78 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Not really. And, even if it is the default, if a player wanted to mark on the playing surface above the suspended disc instead of below, there's nothing that proves they can't.

The only rule that expresses a preference for "below" is the two-meter rule. If the two-meter rule is not in effect, or the suspended disc is not more than two meters above the surface, nothing else says whether to mark it on the surface below or the surface above.

(Farther down the rabbit hole, even if the two-meter rule is in effect and the disc is stuck more than two meters above the ground under a bridge, if I mark it on the bridge, then my disc would not be subject to the two-meter rule, so the preference for below still does not apply.)
It's an inference based on the logical extension of the closest rule or principle embodied in the rules, and established practice. Specifically, QA-POS-1 specifically grants permission to relocate to the playing surface above the thrown disc only when the disc is inaccessible and no reasonable stance can be taken there. Inherent, though unstated, in the reply is the assumption that if the disc IS accessible and a reasonable stance can be taken there that a playing surface exists below the disc, and that the subsequent throw must be played from there. Consequently, it is to be inferred that if a disc is suspended above a playing surface and a reasonable stance can be taken on that playing surface, the lie is to be marked on that surface and play precedes from there.

Additionally, established practice is that when a disc is suspended above a playing surface, the lie is marked on the playing surface below, irregardless of whether or not the two meter rule is in effect.

Consequently, logical extension of these principles (Rule of Fairness) dictates that a disc suspended above a playing surface is to be marked on the playing surface immediately below the disc.

Quote:
As to clarification; has a disc ever actually been suspended under one playing surface and above another? If the rules try to cover all these situations, they'll get as thick as golf's.
Yes, discs HAVE actually been suspended under one playing surface and over another. It can easily happen--and has with some regularity—that a disc gets wedged into the substructure of the bridge between the teepad and basket on Buckhorn hole 8, cited upthread. Discs on the walking surface of the bridge or the handrails are marked and played on the walking surface; discs below the walking surface are marked and played on the ground below.

There have also been instances of discs wedged into the substructure of the bridge over the OB creek on the left side if the fairway on Zebulon hole 8, for which the rule is that the walking surface of the bridge and hand rails are in bounds, but the substructure is OB.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-05-2018, 05:35 PM
IHearChains IHearChains is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Years Playing: 16
Courses Played: 173
Posts: 641
Niced 192 Times in 88 Posts
Default

So, to sum up...a bunch of inferences and extensions are what we have on this issue. Not much use in resolving a disputed ruling in a live-action situation.
Reply With Quote
 

  #40  
Old 09-05-2018, 06:26 PM
philstine philstine is offline
Par Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Courses Played: 20
Posts: 221
Niced 184 Times in 78 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IHearChains View Post
So, to sum up...a bunch of inferences and extensions are what we have on this issue. Not much use in resolving a disputed ruling in a live-action situation.
The Rulebook explcitly recognizes that there may be situations that arise during the course of play that may not be directly addressed by the rules and mandates that players employ their critical reasoning skills to extend the existing rules and principles embodied in the rules to address those situations:

Quote:
801.01 Fairness

A. These rules have been designed to promote fair play for all disc golfers. In using these rules, the player should apply the rule that most directly addresses the situation at hand. If any point in dispute is not covered by the rules, the decision is made in accordance with fairness. Often a logical extension of the closest existing rule or the principles embodied in these rules will provide guidance for determining fairness. (bold added for emphasis)
though if some of the comments in this thread are any indication, the Rules grossly overestimate the critical reasoning abilities of at least some players.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Overlapping playing surfaces PhattD Rules Questions & Discussion 9 08-26-2017 02:13 PM
Playing too much? Langston77 General Disc Golf Chat 26 01-20-2017 03:53 PM
Tee Pad Surfaces - Yay or Nay? (The Teebox Co.) TheTeeboxCo._Levi B. General Disc Golf Chat 66 02-03-2016 07:42 PM
Men's Cross Pendant (Diamond Layered) B3NDER The Flea Market 10 01-17-2013 09:32 PM
done playing Kaufman325 The Marketplace 13 01-27-2012 08:45 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:42 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.