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Old 09-11-2015, 03:37 PM
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Tim_the_Enchanter Tim_the_Enchanter is offline
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Default 2m penalty if disc isn't observed?

There was a scenario I was in years ago in a tournament, that popped back into my head recently. In retrospect, I wonder if we handled it correctly. The 2m rule was in effect for this tournament, and on one hole, I had a shot that went wrong and ended up in an overgrown laurel (for those unfamiliar with laurel, it's a big dense hedge that loves to eat discs.) I couldn't find my disc, and soon the rest of my card were in the hunt along with me. As I knew that the clock was running, I was somewhat frantic in trying to find my disc, and started shaking branches. One of them proved to be the right branch and the disc plopped down at my feet.

I told my card mates that I'd found it, but didn't see where it'd been in the bush. One guy on my card who was the most experienced (or at least liked to talk like it) said that if nobody saw it that we should go ahead and assume that it was above 2m, as the sporting way to go. He then chided me for shaking branches in the first place, saying something like "That's why when the 2m rule is in play, you don't EVER shake branches without having eyes on the disc." I reasoned that it was better than the alternative of taking a lost disc penalty. I accepted my penalty and played on. I forget what I finished at, but in the scheme of things, the extra stroke didn't matter much at all.

Looking back on it though, I'm thinking that had I argued against taking the penalty, I could have been in the right. It was entirely possible that the disc was in fact above 2m, but nobody could verify that. Trying to imagine if I were the TD and someone came to me with that scenario, I would say that since nobody could see it, it wouldn't be enough evidence and the benefit of doubt would go to the thrower.

I see in the rules Q & A a similar situation where an official declares the disc above 2m and then gets shaken down, but nothing about if a disc might have been above 2m. Thoughts?
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Old 09-11-2015, 03:45 PM
rickles rickles is offline
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Wouldn't matter, the 2m rule call was BAD...it should have been played as a lost disc.
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Old 09-11-2015, 03:48 PM
biscoe biscoe is offline
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Disc was not lost. Disc was not established to be above 2m. i think you are safe on both of those. Whether you did anything untoward in shaking it out would be my question.
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Old 09-11-2015, 03:51 PM
PWaggoner PWaggoner is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickles View Post
Wouldn't matter, the 2m rule call was BAD...it should have been played as a lost disc.
Why? It was found.
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Old 09-11-2015, 03:52 PM
rickles rickles is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
Disc was not lost. Disc was not established to be above 2m. i think you are safe on both of those. Whether you did anything untoward in shaking it out would be my question.

My bad, skimmed too fast. Really had to have been there and seen everything in context...but only thing extra i see you could've done is inquire with the TD to confirm the group decision.
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Old 09-11-2015, 03:53 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Have you (or anyone else responding so far) actually read the two meter rule, because your answer is right there in the text.
806.01
D. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc is considered to have come to rest above two meters.
Penalty correctly assessed.
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Old 09-11-2015, 03:57 PM
PWaggoner PWaggoner is offline
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/thread
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:00 PM
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Tim_the_Enchanter Tim_the_Enchanter is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Have you (or anyone else responding so far) actually read the two meter rule, because your answer is right there in the text.
806.01
D. If the thrower moves the disc before a determination has been made, the disc is considered to have come to rest above two meters.
Penalty correctly assessed.
Ah, fair point! I certainly wasn't trying anything malicious by shaking the branches, I just didn't want the lost disc ruling. I was OK with the penalty as it was certainly better than the alternative, and as I said, it didn't matter in the end. I will still continue to hate the 2m rule though, except in very specific situations.
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:13 PM
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namar namar is offline
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I feel the case could be made under Establishing Position rules:
802.02.E
"If the thrown disc has moved after it first came to rest on the in-bounds playing surface, it shall be replaced to its approximate position. If it first came to rest elsewhere, the disc need not be replaced, and any determinations are made relative to where it first came to rest."

An example would be if I'm just walking up to the laurel I suspect my disc is near or possibly in. Say I push aside branches in an effort to more clearly examine the ground for my disc and this first push knocks the disc down... I'm not necessarily "shaking" the laurel but the result is the same: my disc falls from an unknown height and lands in-bounds. Not much of a difference, but I would be mad as hell if someone tried to stroke me under 806.01 for the second scenario.
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Old 09-11-2015, 04:25 PM
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namar namar is offline
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nope, after further reflection, I am siding with 806.01. "...any determinations are made relative to where it first came to rest" seems to point right back to to 2m rule. PWaggoner was right.
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