#21  
Old 04-05-2013, 06:10 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenb View Post
Are you sure it doesn't apply?
Dead positive. "Status of a disc" refers to its position (in-bounds, out-of-bounds, suspended, etc), not its legality.

Again, I ask what exactly is accomplished in throwing provisionals in this case? What possible outcome is there in which the provisional throws would be counted towards the player's score?

If the disc is declared legal, all throws made with it count with no penalty.
If the disc is declared illegal, all throws made with it count and the player is assessed two penalty throws per use.

There is no third option.
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  #22  
Old 04-05-2013, 09:17 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Dead positive. "Status of a disc" refers to its position (in-bounds, out-of-bounds, suspended, etc), not its legality.

Again, I ask what exactly is accomplished in throwing provisionals in this case? What possible outcome is there in which the provisional throws would be counted towards the player's score?

If the disc is declared legal, all throws made with it count with no penalty.
If the disc is declared illegal, all throws made with it count and the player is assessed two penalty throws per use.

There is no third option.
Make provisional throws with a known-to-be-OK disc whenever you'd prefer to make the same throw with a questioned disc.
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  #23  
Old 04-06-2013, 10:40 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
Make provisional throws with a known-to-be-OK disc whenever you'd prefer to make the same throw with a questioned disc.
Okay, so let's say you throw two sets of provisionals, one including the questioned disc and the other with discs known-to-be-OK. So we'll say that in the first sequence, you tee with the questioned disc, upshot, and hit the putt. In the second sequence, you tee with an unquestioned disc, then hit the putt.

Rule states that you record both sets of scores and the TD determines which one you go with. What are the two scores recorded? 3 and 2? Or 5 and 2?

That's my objection to the use of a provisional in this. The decision the TD is making really should be between a three and a five since the dispute is simply the legality of the disc. There's not really a need to introduce a third score/choice into the equation.

As a TD, were I presented with a scenario in which a player threw a questionable disc and a provisional set of shots "just in case", I'd rule that the questionable disc is the one that counts (throwing out the deuce in my example) THEN I'd rule on the legal/illegal question (3 vs 5 in my example).
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:52 AM
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mashnut mashnut is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Okay, so let's say you throw two sets of provisionals, one including the questioned disc and the other with discs known-to-be-OK. So we'll say that in the first sequence, you tee with the questioned disc, upshot, and hit the putt. In the second sequence, you tee with an unquestioned disc, then hit the putt.

Rule states that you record both sets of scores and the TD determines which one you go with. What are the two scores recorded? 3 and 2? Or 5 and 2?

That's my objection to the use of a provisional in this. The decision the TD is making really should be between a three and a five since the dispute is simply the legality of the disc. There's not really a need to introduce a third score/choice into the equation.

As a TD, were I presented with a scenario in which a player threw a questionable disc and a provisional set of shots "just in case", I'd rule that the questionable disc is the one that counts (throwing out the deuce in my example) THEN I'd rule on the legal/illegal question (3 vs 5 in my example).
The whole point of the provisional is that if the disc is ruled illegal, you take the shots with the legal disc. It's not that different from taking a provisional if you don't know whether an area's ob. You throw the shots either way, if the TD rules it's ob you take that set of shots. You don't automatically take the worst result, provisionals let you play it either way and figure it out later.
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  #25  
Old 04-06-2013, 12:22 PM
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Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
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I'm thinking what I might do this year is visit the TD just before the start of the first round of every event I enter and get him/her to check and bless my discs in advance. If the TD can't test them, they essentially have to approve them assuming they are PDGA Approved discs. Thus, no one can mount a successful disc challenge during the event.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:13 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashnut View Post
The whole point of the provisional is that if the disc is ruled illegal, you take the shots with the legal disc. It's not that different from taking a provisional if you don't know whether an area's ob. You throw the shots either way, if the TD rules it's ob you take that set of shots. You don't automatically take the worst result, provisionals let you play it either way and figure it out later.
The point of provisionals is for when there are two distinct outcomes that can result from a dispute, each possible outcome has been played out before the TD makes his ruling on the dispute.

In the case of an questionable OB disc, the either/or dispute is solely where the correct lie to be played from is located. Since there are two possible lies: A) where the disc is (in-bounds) or B) the last point in-bounds/previous lie (out-of-bounds), provisional shots are necessary so that once the TD determines the correct lie (A or B), the correct score is recorded. What those scores are are irrelevant to the decision.

The either/or dispute with a questionable disc is legal/illegal. The result of the either/or dispute is either a two-stroke penalty or no penalty at all. There aren't two different lies that could result from the dispute, therefore there's no reason for any provisional throws to be made at all. It's like if the players are unsure of whether or not the 2-meter penalty is in play. There's no need for provisionals in that case, the player simply marks underneath and plays on. If the penalty is in play, they add it on to the score. If it isn't, the player gets his score sans penalty.

If a player wants to avoid any chance of a penalty for throwing an illegal disc, they should simply choose not to throw the disc at all until it is approved. It's a waste of time and energy to start adding on provisional throws, and the point of provisionals is supposed to speed play and/or avoid having to stop play to wait for an official or the TD to rule.
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  #27  
Old 04-06-2013, 01:20 PM
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I think it's a silly debate either way, especially since there's not a single instance so far of this actually being a problem at a tournament. Still, why wouldn't a player be allowed to take a provisional pending the decision of the TD? That's the reason they exist, I don't think there are any rules against using them in a case like this. If you think your best chance of a good drive on a hole is with a disc you think is legal but someone has questioned, I don't see the problem with taking that drive, then driving again with a disc that hasn't been questioned, especially with so many questions about what discs are actually going to be considered illegal.
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  #28  
Old 04-06-2013, 05:31 PM
JoakimBL JoakimBL is offline
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I cannot find any basis for JC's interpretation of the use if provisionals in the rules not can I follow the logic for not allowing them. Provisionals would seem like the obvious choice. The only other alternative, if you don't want to just throw a difenrent disc is to halt play and find the TD. Now if it's a disc you want to use on a lot of throws, that might be preferable to throwing a ton of provisionals.

As for whether or not this is a relevant debate, I say it's better to have it before the situation becomes a problem in a tournament setting. But really this is something the RC should have foreseen and some how addressed when they rewrote the rules. It's just not practical to keep track of what disc your opponents are throwing at all times. And actually it incorrect that the rule hasn't changed. It used to be that carrying an illegal disc was a DQ, unless it became illegal during the round, was it not?
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  #29  
Old 04-07-2013, 09:41 PM
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JC's interpretation has merit. There are two situations in which a provisional may be taken. The first is if the original throw may be out-of-bounds, may be lost, or may have missed a mandatory. In this case, it is also necessary that the status of the disc cannot be determined, and that the group agrees that the provisional will save time. The second situation is to appeal a ruling if a majority of the group or an official. But challenging the legality of a disc does not require a group ruling and cannot be ruled upon by an official.
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  #30  
Old 04-08-2013, 05:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarpfish View Post
Do you realize how much of a pain in the ass of a distraction such an undertaking such a procedure would be?
Such a "undertaking"... Like make a little X at the corner of a few score boxes. Wow, if that gets you off track I hope you never have anything serious happen on a round.

ps : in japan, they have a weigth-in for all discs of all players before every tournament because of their stricter weigth-rules. If you realy want to be a stickler about it, we could start having those too...
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