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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #2111  
Old 12-15-2017, 03:36 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by slowplastic View Post
I just want to say that it's still a useful skill to test pro's on 230-300ish shots in the woods, shaping lines like turnovers or touch putter or forehands, etc. There is a place for these holes. And if I expect to birdie the hole most of the time, there's no reason to me that in an open event you can't call it a par 2.

How many people complaining about par 2 also play at a world class level?
These are some of my favorite holes.

I'm not a par 2 fan per sey. But I like the notion that the pressure will cause people to adjust holes. However, there are some classic holes that play par 2 that should never go away.
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  #2112  
Old 12-15-2017, 08:20 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
I always find it interesting when some writes critically of a solution being tried by TDs to address a problem in one paragraph, then follows it up with a second paragraph where they write that someone is demanding changes but offering no solutions. Is it that no one is offering solutions, or just not the ones you want? That's okay but it would be nice to have some clarity.

Little story. The Astros won the world series this year. The way they did it was with numbers. An example, they had one pitcher where they counted the numbers of each pitch type he threw. They knew exactly which pitches gave what results. They changed his pitches to match those numbers. He want from a has been to the guy who won the final game.

Numbers matter in sports. You may not think so but in everything I've seen, from management to fan participation, they are used very heavily.
As usual, your reading comprehension skills have failed you. I really don't know why you're rambling about statistics (thanks, I've heard of Saber metrics) being important in sports.

My contention is that better course design for Pro events and setting standards for those events would eliminate the need to use and accept Par 2s as a part of disc golf. And that a Par 2 would have an equally bad optic for the game to those same sponsors.

One of Steve's major contentions as to why we need to use Par 2 are: the optics of too far under par scores and their possible affect on attracting major sponsors like in Professional Golf. And I offered my solutions: better tour standards in design and expectations of the TDs running those tournaments. And I (admittedly in a backhand, snide manner) called for a better and stronger ruling body in the PDGA.

So... shut up, Lyle?

This whole thread reaks of Golf envy. Guys, it's OK that theirs is bigger than yours.
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  #2113  
Old 12-15-2017, 08:27 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
No. And this is the Par Talk thread. Take it elsewhere.

I respect your opinion that that par 2 may be sillier than scores of 73 under. So, let's set par correctly for all the par 3s, 4s, and 5s. Then, if par 2s are really silly, we can stop having tournaments on courses that have too many of them. (At least the highly visible tournaments.) That way, even if we mislabel the par 2s as par 3s, total par will be a lot closer to where it should be.

(And we can still whisper to each other that one some holes, you "must get" a birdie 2.)

I would not go so far as to tell TDs they cannot set any hole to par 2. I lean toward letting TDs figure out what's best. They're doing the work and taking the risk and have the most incentive to do it right.
So you agree with me that it's a design problem, or a lack of Professional quality courses...

But you also blame the TDs for setting all these terrible Pars that your statistics bear out. So someone needs to be holding the TDs and their courses and their Pars accountable. A strong ruling body comes to mind, but we seem to lack one.

Probably because the PDGA stands on the backs of its hard-working TDs, and knows that, and is too afraid to rock the boat for fear of driving them from the game with too many standards or any more demands.

So using Par 2 is the easy way out?
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  #2114  
Old 12-15-2017, 08:31 PM
Alobar Alobar is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowplastic View Post
I just want to say that it's still a useful skill to test pro's on 230-300ish shots in the woods, shaping lines like turnovers or touch putter or forehands, etc. There is a place for these holes. And if I expect to birdie the hole most of the time, there's no reason to me that in an open event you can't call it a par 2.

How many people complaining about par 2 also play at a world class level?
I certainly don't play at a world class level, if it's me your asking.

I'm playing devil's advocate here, and simply pointing out that the reasoning here for using Par 2 (sponsors don't like scores too far under par) is weak and that Par 2 would/could/maybe/might seem equally as silly as these low scores supposedly do.

And I agree on your point on shaping short shots through the trees. Still a valid skill to test, even at the Pro level.
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  #2115  
Old 12-15-2017, 09:39 PM
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TAFL TAFL is offline
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As usual, your reading comprehension skills have failed you. ...
So... shut up, Lyle?
That zooming sound was from everything going by over your head.

So...shut up, Alobar?

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  #2116  
Old 12-15-2017, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
These are some of my favorite holes.

I'm not a par 2 fan per sey. But I like the notion that the pressure will cause people to adjust holes. However, there are some classic holes that play par 2 that should never go away.
Par 2s fall in the category of "tough par" holes---as with par 3s and even par 4s where there is more danger of a bogey, and losing a stroke to the field, than opportunity to birdie and gain a stroke. I wouldn't want to play a course full of them, but I like the challenge, and the balance they give to a course.

I'm not so sure correctly labeling them adds any pressure, though. After all, even the "No Par 2" crowd refers to them as "birdie or die", which is the same pressure, pretty obvious in the phrase itself.

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  #2117  
Old 12-15-2017, 10:01 PM
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Ah, if only the EES had caught on.

As those of you who've memorized this entire thread will no doubt remember, I proposed the EES, or Expert Expected Score, to be used in disc golf instead of "par". TDs could declare the EES, and adjust them in the future if results proved the expectations to be unrealistic. Scores Better than Expert Expected Score could be BEES, as opposed to birdies. And Worse, WEES, 2WEES, etc., I guess.

Then we would go along without violating the sacred par principles of "no par 2" or "the way we've always done it" or whatever. We'd have an accurate and useful Expert Expected Score, and they could go back to using par with its definition of.....of.....oh, wait.....nevermind.
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  #2118  
Old 12-15-2017, 11:25 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Alobar View Post
I offered my solutions: better tour standards in design and expectations of the TDs running those tournaments. And I (admittedly in a backhand, snide manner) called for a better and stronger ruling body in the PDGA.
When seat belts first became available, a lot of defensive-driving advocates argued that we should not install them, and instead should put all our efforts into making safer drivers.

You are trying to conflate two issues to get support for your favorite issue. Setting par appropriately for every hole can happen whether or not (or while working on) better tour standards and a stronger ruling body happen.

And yes, setting par appropriately - including par 2s - is an easy solution to the specific problem of par not performing as well as it could. Your other problems will need more work.
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  #2119  
Old 12-16-2017, 12:33 PM
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lyleoross lyleoross is offline
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Originally Posted by Alobar View Post
As usual, your reading comprehension skills have failed you. I really don't know why you're rambling about statistics (thanks, I've heard of Saber metrics) being important in sports.

My contention is that better course design for Pro events and setting standards for those events would eliminate the need to use and accept Par 2s as a part of disc golf. And that a Par 2 would have an equally bad optic for the game to those same sponsors.

One of Steve's major contentions as to why we need to use Par 2 are: the optics of too far under par scores and their possible affect on attracting major sponsors like in Professional Golf. And I offered my solutions: better tour standards in design and expectations of the TDs running those tournaments. And I (admittedly in a backhand, snide manner) called for a better and stronger ruling body in the PDGA.

So... shut up, Lyle?

This whole thread reaks of Golf envy. Guys, it's OK that theirs is bigger than yours.
Why is it with you guys that the first thing to do is call names and tell the other person to shut up. It reeks of insecurity.

So your base argument is that calling a hole that plays par 2 par 3 is gonna look better than calling it what it is?

If you're gonna write that using numbers to define the sport is bad, and you understand saber metrics, then you should be expecting to get called out on that.

I think you are mistaking a solid respect for how golf goes about running their sport for envy. Ignoring the successful things they've done seems foolish to me.

I think it's generally agreed, the solution is to fix holes that play as par 2, that is course design. But no one in the past year or so of debating this topic has ever said anything different.
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  #2120  
Old 12-16-2017, 01:38 PM
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BTW, modeling after a successful business, in the business world, is called following best practices. It is considered such in intelligent approach to business that it's covered in MBA programs and has it's own researchers, oh my.
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