Reach back era is over, long live the whip.

[SaROCaM]

Originally Posted by RoDeO

PP often outdrives her competition because of one factor alone- she exerts more physical effort in her throw than her competitors.

If you have ever watched them throw in person you wouldn't say that. Even on video you can hear them grunting and giving their all on max distance throws.

Originally Posted by RoDeO

PP hits around 450 on flat ground.

Now, both PP and the top MPO distance throwers all have immaculate form.

If your goal is 400+ and you are observing that PP throws 450+ with "immaculate form" but without the benefit of "muscular ability" that would result in ~600' throws, then why aren't you focusing on getting that form that gets to 450'?

Why wouldn't you want to build muscle memory with correct 450' form as the foundation? Why are you building up muscle memory with flawed 360' form?

Or since you say your mechanics haven't changed much, then are you saying you have 180' form and 180' muscle development? Do you realize that muscular development has rapidly diminishing gains after a certain point?

By your own theory, the first 400 or so feet can come from form, while the next 200 or so feet come from muscular ability. So if you at 360' have 180' of form (again, since you say your mechanics haven't changed much since the beginning) and 180' of muscular ability (again, since that is what you attribute your gains to 360' to) then that means you have 220' feet left to achieve through form and 20' left to achieve through muscular ability. Why would you work so much harder for 20' than you would for 220'?

By the way, your 300+300 analysis is flawed. You can't use average FPO players as a baseline to compare to top MPO distance throwers. You have to use top FPO distance throwers as a baseline to compare to top MPO distance throwers. So basically PP, Catrina, those in the 400-450+ range.

[perklc]

What you see is not what one actually feels and does

What you see happening is not what is actually happening. I don't understand then because when I watch a recording of me throw, my form is very clearly trash, but boy does it actually feel like I am doing everything right. Something doesn't add up here.

[RoDeO]

Originally Posted by SaROCaM

There is a relatively large tolerance range for form flaws in that distance range you are talking about. You may be throwing twice as far as when you started, but when you started at 180' that isn't saying much if the goal is big distance.

There are those who are swinging effortlessly to get 360' without great effort or focus on fast twitch muscle. They have much more efficient form. What you are doing is like trying to put more force on a short pry bar when it would be a lot easier to get a longer pry bar and apply less force.

You are quick to dismiss things before you understand the point of them. That is why, for example, HUB is outhrowing you with a midrange while doing the windmill drill. You get too wrapped up in the windmill motion and miss the point of using gravity/downshift to generate easy, efficient momentum. This is a source of throwing power that is much more easily accessible than "training fast twitch muscles." You can spend 3 months trying to gain 25 feet through training muscle groups, or you can spend a shorter amount of time and gain 50 feet by learning to use physics to your advantage.

Do what you want, but you are basically using noob gains to justify your approach.

When I first started getting out to 250 feet was all effort. Now it's hard to throw soft and easy enough to not overshoot that distance. You could now say that is an effortless throw. Back when I first started, 300 feet seemed an impossible distance. Now, it's an effortless distance. What changed? Well mostly it was developing the fast twitch muscles as my mechanics still feel relatively the same. As I progress now past 350 feet I feel the brace more pronounced even though the timing event is the same. I feel a greater weight mass of the arm and disc as it is pulled against the brace. It's not that my mechanics drastically changed, its that as my distance has gained due to physical development I notice a stronger brace, a heavier mass being pulled through. I also am feeling more tension or strength of feeling of pulling the disc through in my back.

The three months of training will be to get my drive to that distance. I'm confident I will achieve the result. It will put me on track to be hitting 425-450 feet by the middle of summer. I think that's an achievable goal for my first year in disc golf.

[seedlings]

Yes, as you progress, you feel the techniques taught in all the excellent drills. Your eventual form will look as if you learned from all these drills - because of human anatomy. You will not at all look like your hip twitch video - Nothing whatsoever - when you hit 450.

[SaROCaM]

Originally Posted by RoDeO

-I feel the brace more pronounced
-I feel a greater weight mass of the arm and disc as it is pulled against the brace.
-I notice a stronger brace, a heavier mass being pulled through.
-I also am feeling more tension or strength of feeling of pulling the disc through in my back.

These are all signs that your mechanics have changed. All these things you "feel" are the things that the drills you disparage are designed to help people feel. If the drills didn't help you feel them then that's fine, the way people feel is an individual thing. But the point is, everyone who experiences success in throwing feels all those things, and those things are because of mechanics. When the sequence is correct, those things naturally happen. It doesn't take much muscular training to get in those positions. If you are talking about squatting 3x bodyweight, then sure, you need to train the muscles hard. But to get to the positions required to have correct form doesn't require very much muscular training.

You are feeling all those things while throwing 360'. Guess what...there are lots of people throwing 360' who would get absolutely stapled in the weight room. It isn't about muscling a disc out there. It is about getting the sequence correct.

[RoDeO]

Originally Posted by seedlings

Yes, as you progress, you feel the techniques taught in all the excellent drills. Your eventual form will look as if you learned from all these drills - because of human anatomy. You will not at all look like your hip twitch video - Nothing whatsoever - when you hit 450.

Maybe so, could very well be right, no argument from me. This video was from today after about 150 throws in the garage.

https://youtu.be/JwyIyU8XRFc

[JuanA]

Originally Posted by RoDeO

Maybe so, could very well be right, no argument from me. This video was from today after about 150 throws in the garage.

https://youtu.be/JwyIyU8XRFc

Your plant foot looks much better than your previous videos. Your form is improving...congrats!

[ChrisWoj]

Is slo-motion really necessary when you can move a YouTube video frame by frame with the , and . keys?

[ChrisWoj]

Originally Posted by RoDeO

Maybe so, could very well be right, no argument from me. This video was from today after about 150 throws in the garage.

https://youtu.be/JwyIyU8XRFc

I think I can see where people are saying that you're muscling the disc instead of pulling it (this is the first of your videos that I've seen). Look at your head and your hips both in the video. When I go frame by frame I can see that the disc is out of your hand before the hips have even come into the play. I wonder if you could fix that by just focusing on where you're tracking with your head. It'd be really hard for you to lag behind with the hips like you are if you keep your head down and over the shot.

Not saying I have perfect form, but watch: https://youtu.be/l7X9jsCio-I?t=187 - go frame by frame using , and . to see the way it moves with the body.

See how my head stays down almost like I'm looking down into my elbow/upper arm as I pull through the shot? I know that the shot comes from the bottom up, from the feet up, but you can use tricks to force the body into that alignment. If your head is where it needs to be, your spine is where it needs to be, and your hips will be where they need to be.

Note: not all of my throws in that video are very good. I wasn't doing much driving work at the time, and I fly open on a bunch. The one I timestamped to is one where my body doesn't fly open early, and so is a good example.

[RoDeO]

Originally Posted by ChrisWoj

I think I can see where people are saying that you're muscling the disc instead of pulling it (this is the first of your videos that I've seen). Look at your head and your hips both in the video. When I go frame by frame I can see that the disc is out of your hand before the hips have even come into the play. I wonder if you could fix that by just focusing on where you're tracking with your head. It'd be really hard for you to lag behind with the hips like you are if you keep your head down and over the shot.

Not saying I have perfect form, but watch: https://youtu.be/l7X9jsCio-I?t=187 - go frame by frame using , and . to see the way it moves with the body.

See how my head stays down almost like I'm looking down into my elbow/upper arm as I pull through the shot? I know that the shot comes from the bottom up, from the feet up, but you can use tricks to force the body into that alignment. If your head is where it needs to be, your spine is where it needs to be, and your hips will be where they need to be.

Note: not all of my throws in that video are very good. I wasn't doing much driving work at the time, and I fly open on a bunch. The one I timestamped to is one where my body doesn't fly open early, and so is a good example.

Humm..people don't say I'm muscling the discs and my hips lead the shoulders in rotation so I'm not sure what you are saying. I intentionally keep my head turned back longer because it helps with me from jerking the disc prematurely.