Power Pocket and Arc-My new video

[drk_evns]

Ive reread a lot of those discussions and I don’t believe any of my posts were deleted.

I don’t know if you have me confused with someone else but I wasn’t EVER trolling him. All of it was about disc golf and Everything I said I meant. In fact, the main thing I didn’t agree with him on was his opinion on KJ’s lower body mechanics.

After we disagreed on that, we had a friendly discussion about the amps he builds (check the threads it’s still there).

I also didn’t “follow” him to Facebook, I was a part of the form critique group long before he left here and ran over there.

I’m moving on now but thought it was appropriate to clear the air on those unfair points.

[ThrowaEnvy]

Fair enough man, I'm not trying to start something either, I remember the conversation on the amps... sounded like you guys were getting along. I was misinformed about Facebook. Happy to clear that up and move on too.

I know it was post 42 can't remember he made it for posted it but it was no overhead diagram of Mike C and the reverse K and between all that I finally put some stuff together I've struggled with for years

[ThrowaEnvy]

Originally Posted by rhatton1

Some of the descriptions could use updating but this and SW's to down of KY from earlier show it in action - https://imgur.com/Alq70Di

Rhatton1 for the win!!! Post#42 (thats fate) Thankyou man.. Thank you!

[Tinkles]

Originally Posted by drk_evns

It really helps me if I think about it like this instead: Get into an athletic position and get the disc in the power pocket with your elbow forward like it should be. Now, without moving your shoulder joint, extend your lower arm (say hello to the hit, approx. 45 degrees left of target like BW says). Now rotate your upper body without moving your arm until you're in a wide reachback position. Say hello to your backswing. Now rotate as if you were throwing your disc slowly, but keep your shoulder joint static (never closes, even a little bit) and allow the elbow to be somewhat loose. You should feel the rotation force your elbow closed a little bit and then SNAP back to straight right to the hit point you addressed before.

Brad's video to start this thread and this post really helped something click. I feel like I finally have an understanding of closed shoulder and how simple the arm movement is during the throw. The upper arm stays in place (closed) and the forearm just goes from extended (backswing) to collapsed back (mid swing - where the beato drill starts from) to extended (hit/release).

This also helped me figure out another reason I was pulling discs right even when I thought I had good form. I was opening the shoulder.

This also helped me realize why the Beato drill wasn't working for me. When watching Beato, what I thought I was seeing was a wide open shoulder. Doing that drill with an open shoulder feels powerless. I was thinking what kind of freak fast twitch muscles does this dude have to be able to generate any leverage from this position. The drill seemed useless. Now understanding that you have to have a closed shoulder (90 ish degree upper arm to chest angle), I can understand the drill.

This should help people's understanding of how bad an open shoulder is and what Brad is talking about with the size of the arc. Try the Beato drill with a wide open shoulder. You will have a small arc and no power. Now try it the right way with a closed shoulder. You will have much more leverage and a bigger arc.

[drk_evns]

The shoulder is counter intuitive... in my head I’m always attempting to keep a wide angle 90 degrees at the VERY least. That’s what gets you into the power pocket and not hugging yourself. (BW calls it the “inward pull” because it really does feel like all you’re doing is pulling the disc towards you into your power pocket)

HOWEVER, from the power pocket to the hit, the shoulder angle is DECREASING to 90 degrees. (This is the “outward ejection” BW talks about). Your shoulder is essentially staying where you set it in the power pocket, but the elbow and wrist extend to the hit and your chest rotates to make the shoulder angle compress.

[Tinkles]

I also think that possibly:
1) "Wide rail" is really just a byproduct of your closed shoulder angle being more like 120 degrees rather than 90.
2) The power benefit of the wide rail comes from the same source Beato talks about when he mentions the further forward you can move the power pocket, the further you throw. Your upper arm being at 120ish degrees allows you to fully leverage a closed shoulder and naturally moves the power pocket foward. I don't know what the magic angle is (just guessing with the 120) but I think that is all this comes down too.

[drk_evns]

Originally Posted by Tinkles

I also think that possibly:

1) "Wide rail" is really just a byproduct of your closed shoulder angle being more like 120 degrees rather than 90.

2) The power benefit of the wide rail comes from the same source Beato talks about when he mentions the further forward you can move the power pocket, the further you throw. Your upper arm being at 120ish degrees allows you to fully leverage a closed shoulder and naturally moves the power pocket foward. I don't know what the magic angle is (just guessing with the 120) but I think that is all this comes down too.

I’ve always believed “wide rail” to be the “correct” way to throw. I don’t see it as a style difference. I see it as not hugging yourself.

Some do it more dramatically than others.

[timothy42b]

Originally Posted by Tinkles

I also think that possibly:
1) "Wide rail" is really just a byproduct of your closed shoulder angle being more like 120 degrees rather than 90.
2) The power benefit of the wide rail comes from the same source Beato talks about when he mentions the further forward you can move the power pocket, the further you throw. Your upper arm being at 120ish degrees allows you to fully leverage a closed shoulder and naturally moves the power pocket foward. I don't know what the magic angle is (just guessing with the 120) but I think that is all this comes down too.

Ah. With my upper arm at 90 degrees, the disc at my left pec, my forearm points that magic 30 degrees left of line that Brad was talking about.

[drk_evns]

Originally Posted by timothy42b

Ah. With my upper arm at 90 degrees, the disc at my left pec, my forearm points that magic 30 degrees left of line that Brad was talking about.

When you say upper arm at 90, do you mean the elbow or shoulder joint?

Shoulder should be greater than 90. It's like the bare minimum acceptable to not be hugging yourself, but the larger the angle, the more the shoulder will compress into the hit.

[Tinkles]

Originally Posted by timothy42b

Ah. With my upper arm at 90 degrees, the disc at my left pec, my forearm points that magic 30 degrees left of line that Brad was talking about.

I think Brad shows the upper arm at 90 relative to the chest. I'm honestly not sure what Brad's position is on whether 90 degrees is perfect for that angle or not. I wasn't thinking about his thoughts on where the forearm should be aimed. I need to try that out though. I was more focused on the angle between the upper arm and chest. Brad's video helped me realize what closed shoulder really meant and how opening the shoulder entirely made a small weak arc. This helped me have a better understanding of the Beato drill and the throw in general.

Separate from Brad's video, I was speculating that the benefits of the "wide rail" concept might be the same as Beato talking about moving the power pocket forward.

If you pause your reach back at maximum extension and the angle between arm and chest is 90 degrees, then just make this angle closer to 120 and I think you are in the wide rail position on your reach back. Now keeping this angle relatively static as you start to bring the disc into the power pocket, you will (or at least I think I am) be able to bring the disc into the pocket a little more forward of when you kept your arm at 90 degrees. For me upper arm at 90 degrees, disc in power pocket is about centered over my sternum. Upper arm at 120 ish degrees, disc is centered more over my right pec.

drk_evns I think is saying that the real distance gains come from compression of the angle into the hit. I don't know enough on that to comment, but I think ultimately these teachers may all talking about the same thing in different ways:
wide rail = beato getting pocket more forward = drk_evns angle compressing into hit