#91  
Old 07-29-2019, 07:17 PM
sidewinder22's Avatar
sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Yes, in an experimental thought exercise. In reality, there is muscle movement going on there. But before I stick my foot in my mouth, what is the value of such a discussion? I see none. The throw is very active, not passive. Even the whip of the wrist is not passive, it is a combination of active arm movement, and some active wrist snap, IMO. A completely passive wrist would flop about, like your arm experiment. It is a subtle notion that too often escapes folks who discuss this topic.

The arm movement should be such that it maximizes the position of the disc and the wrist to allow an efficient snap. That snap has elements that are both passive and active.

BTW - it is good to see that Dave is finally moving away from a passive throw to one where the mechanism moves you towards a more active process. If I understand this discussion. Perhaps not.
I agree it is a mix of passive and active, so I'm not sure why you think the passive part should be dismissed in this discussion. Like I demonstrate in the vid and like Climo said it is very much like using a hammer, start loose and tighten at the hit to deliver blow, bam! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=3m20s

BlakeT used to talk about half-hitting vs full-hitting, and half-hitting is the passive whip which you must get to first before you can actively fully-hit. Half-hitting with limp arm will get your kinetic chain working in proper sequence.

Dave D has been teaching the tip of the whip since at least 2001.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/r...esecrets.shtml
"Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the wrist down and the disc in the “launch” position so that it is only necessary to concentrate on acceleration and not form. The launch position is the position and orientation of the disc in your hand at the hit point. Regardless of whether the disc is at the hit point (launch) or in wind up, you have to hold the disc such that when it starts to pivot and rip out it will have the proper tilt and nose angle that you want the shot to have. Keep your wrist cocked down but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You also need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing (disc flutter) and severe loss of power. If you hold the disc in the pre-pivot position, all you have to do is put it at the hit spot and the angles will already be there. It works the same for a putt or an up shot. Not everyone does this, but it makes shots easier.

The upper arm muscles should not be pre-stiffened. Only the lower arm and wrist should be stiffened and you should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.

Right before the hit starts the wrist will wag back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is when the part happens that's important to remember. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out; instead it should come to an abrupt, steely stop. At this point your wrist should be stiff and held motionless, so try to stiffen your fingers, wrist, and arm as much as possible at the moment of impact of the snap. It's similar to a karate chop in that there is very little wrist motion. You don't want to keep your wrist stiff throughout the whole throw, though. At the beginning of the throw you want to only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. You only become tight at the hit. Notice, too, that using the tendon bounce does not mean that your arm stops just because your wrist motion stops. The arm and shoulders must continue to pull through the snap with as much force as possible as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. Pulling through the hit with your hips and shoulders generates power."
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  #92  
Old 07-30-2019, 12:26 AM
Casey 1988 Casey 1988 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I agree it is a mix of passive and active, so I'm not sure why you think the passive part should be dismissed in this discussion. Like I demonstrate in the vid and like Climo said it is very much like using a hammer, start loose and tighten at the hit to deliver blow, bam! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=3m20s

BlakeT used to talk about half-hitting vs full-hitting, and half-hitting is the passive whip which you must get to first before you can actively fully-hit. Half-hitting with limp arm will get your kinetic chain working in proper sequence.

Dave D has been teaching the tip of the whip since at least 2001.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/r...esecrets.shtml
"Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the wrist down and the disc in the “launch” position so that it is only necessary to concentrate on acceleration and not form. The launch position is the position and orientation of the disc in your hand at the hit point. Regardless of whether the disc is at the hit point (launch) or in wind up, you have to hold the disc such that when it starts to pivot and rip out it will have the proper tilt and nose angle that you want the shot to have. Keep your wrist cocked down but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You also need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing (disc flutter) and severe loss of power. If you hold the disc in the pre-pivot position, all you have to do is put it at the hit spot and the angles will already be there. It works the same for a putt or an up shot. Not everyone does this, but it makes shots easier.

The upper arm muscles should not be pre-stiffened. Only the lower arm and wrist should be stiffened and you should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.

Right before the hit starts the wrist will wag back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is when the part happens that's important to remember. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out; instead it should come to an abrupt, steely stop. At this point your wrist should be stiff and held motionless, so try to stiffen your fingers, wrist, and arm as much as possible at the moment of impact of the snap. It's similar to a karate chop in that there is very little wrist motion. You don't want to keep your wrist stiff throughout the whole throw, though. At the beginning of the throw you want to only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. You only become tight at the hit. Notice, too, that using the tendon bounce does not mean that your arm stops just because your wrist motion stops. The arm and shoulders must continue to pull through the snap with as much force as possible as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. Pulling through the hit with your hips and shoulders generates power."
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTR...j5X1J4OvOU9Ilw
On whamer page link above you will see with older pre beveled edge Disc Golf Discs like the Puppy That Dave D is doing the Tip of The Whip perhaps with more Wrist action that with modern discs one does not want due to using such a US Disc, but that was all that was out, a Puppy or other brands small or ROC sized diameter lid like disc.
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  #93  
Old 08-08-2019, 09:53 AM
deyo7 deyo7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RFrance View Post
I believe this is Randy C.'s video follow up for the Dave Dunipace "Whip video." Click on the closed caption (CC) button for subtitles if you Finnish is a little rusty.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
I agree it is a mix of passive and active, so I'm not sure why you think the passive part should be dismissed in this discussion. Like I demonstrate in the vid and like Climo said it is very much like using a hammer, start loose and tighten at the hit to deliver blow, bam! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1pkfJtVq-8#t=3m20s

BlakeT used to talk about half-hitting vs full-hitting, and half-hitting is the passive whip which you must get to first before you can actively fully-hit. Half-hitting with limp arm will get your kinetic chain working in proper sequence.

Dave D has been teaching the tip of the whip since at least 2001.
https://www.dgcoursereview.com/dgr/r...esecrets.shtml
"Load your wrist and fingers lightly with the wrist down and the disc in the “launch” position so that it is only necessary to concentrate on acceleration and not form. The launch position is the position and orientation of the disc in your hand at the hit point. Regardless of whether the disc is at the hit point (launch) or in wind up, you have to hold the disc such that when it starts to pivot and rip out it will have the proper tilt and nose angle that you want the shot to have. Keep your wrist cocked down but not curled back. Your wrist should be more or less in a hand shaking position but cocked down. You also need a wrist down position to have the disc flat to avoid off axis torquing (disc flutter) and severe loss of power. If you hold the disc in the pre-pivot position, all you have to do is put it at the hit spot and the angles will already be there. It works the same for a putt or an up shot. Not everyone does this, but it makes shots easier.

The upper arm muscles should not be pre-stiffened. Only the lower arm and wrist should be stiffened and you should only be using enough tension in your wrist and fingers to maintain the orientation of the hit. The launch position includes the position of the flight plate and most importantly the back of the disc at the time of launch.

Right before the hit starts the wrist will wag back slightly and then go forward slightly. This is when the part happens that's important to remember. Your wrist should not continue forward to sling the disc out; instead it should come to an abrupt, steely stop. At this point your wrist should be stiff and held motionless, so try to stiffen your fingers, wrist, and arm as much as possible at the moment of impact of the snap. It's similar to a karate chop in that there is very little wrist motion. You don't want to keep your wrist stiff throughout the whole throw, though. At the beginning of the throw you want to only have enough tension in the fingers and wrist to hold the disc in launch position. You only become tight at the hit. Notice, too, that using the tendon bounce does not mean that your arm stops just because your wrist motion stops. The arm and shoulders must continue to pull through the snap with as much force as possible as the disc is ripping out of your fingers. Pulling through the hit with your hips and shoulders generates power."
So maybe a little confused - just want to dumb this all down and clarify.

I really like Randy's video so not picking on that but he says that he is commanding himself to snap the wrist open around 430 (watch from 4:00 on at minimum). I've been going about it quite differently, almost opposite, in my mind anyway. I have to command myself NOT open the wrist, as in resist my wrist's desire to sling forward until the end. Maybe it's because Randy doesn't have to think about that part since he's been doing it for so long, allowing him to only concentrate on the end goal of whipping the disc? Which is ultimately my goal in trying to resist my wrists desire to open prematurely - that is, to get a late snap by slinging opposite edge of disc late.

Am I going about it wrong or is this the same thing as what Dunipace is saying in the above quote where he talks about holding disc at launch point? I'm essentially holding my wrist closed after the lag from plant. I don't really feel like that's precurling but what do I know.
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  #94  
Old 08-08-2019, 11:57 AM
Lazerface Lazerface is offline
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The simple tip to imagine the disc is weighted like a hammer and the opposite edge of the disc from my grip was the weighted end was how "snap" clicked for me. I also like snapping a towel to get the feeling.
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Old 08-08-2019, 12:41 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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Originally Posted by deyo7 View Post
I have to command myself NOT open the wrist, as in resist my wrist's desire to sling forward until the end. Maybe it's because Randy doesn't have to think about that part since he's been doing it for so long, allowing him to only concentrate on the end goal of whipping the disc? Which is ultimately my goal in trying to resist my wrists desire to open prematurely - that is, to get a late snap by slinging opposite edge of disc late.
Maybe your balance isn't forward enough, so your axis isn't where it should be to release the wrist away from you late. If you're stuck on your back leg or between your feet, your torso will open sooner with your arm kind of jammed at your chest, so your wrist will want to start pushing forward so much sooner. If you get to your front leg and your arm can swing through/past your body, it won't want to start moving "around" until later and that will cause your wrist to open and sling the disc away from you as you want.

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  #96  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:43 PM
deyo7 deyo7 is offline
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Originally Posted by slowplastic View Post
Maybe your balance isn't forward enough, so your axis isn't where it should be to release the wrist away from you late. If you're stuck on your back leg or between your feet, your torso will open sooner with your arm kind of jammed at your chest, so your wrist will want to start pushing forward so much sooner. If you get to your front leg and your arm can swing through/past your body, it won't want to start moving "around" until later and that will cause your wrist to open and sling the disc away from you as you want.
Yeah, very well could be true and something to be mindful of, but as I stand here in my office mindful of this I still feel like I actively use my wrist to hold the back edge of the disc in position for as long as possible...
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  #97  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:48 PM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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Yeah, very well could be true and something to be mindful of, but as I stand here in my office mindful of this I still feel like I actively use my wrist to hold the back edge of the disc in position for as long as possible...
If you swing a golf club downward or a baseball bat forward, do you feel like you're holding the head of the club back? To me it feels like I'm pulling the handle forward and momentum is holding the club back. Then as my shoulders open or I approach the ball, the angles work out to start the club head swinging outward and that's because my wrists start to break forward toward neutral. That's through ball contact and then they continue to release the rest of the way in the follow through.

It's a similar thing with a disc, the momentum/weight holds my wrist in a good angle and because my shoulders don't feel like they open until the disc is in a forward position, my wrist doesn't want to break open until then.

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  #98  
Old 08-08-2019, 03:51 PM
RandyC RandyC is offline
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Originally Posted by deyo7 View Post
So maybe a little confused - just want to dumb this all down and clarify.

I really like Randy's video so not picking on that but he says that he is commanding himself to snap the wrist open around 430 (watch from 4:00 on at minimum). I've been going about it quite differently, almost opposite, in my mind anyway. I have to command myself NOT open the wrist, as in resist my wrist's desire to sling forward until the end. Maybe it's because Randy doesn't have to think about that part since he's been doing it for so long, allowing him to only concentrate on the end goal of whipping the disc? Which is ultimately my goal in trying to resist my wrists desire to open prematurely - that is, to get a late snap by slinging opposite edge of disc late.

Am I going about it wrong or is this the same thing as what Dunipace is saying in the above quote where he talks about holding disc at launch point? I'm essentially holding my wrist closed after the lag from plant. I don't really feel like that's precurling but what do I know.
Think handle first, should help things out. In this case, disc is the handle.

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Old 08-08-2019, 08:24 PM
RFrance RFrance is offline
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I'm finally starting to feel the snap a little since I now understand "feeling the weight of the disc" and the pendulum swing. Right at the hit point I think about hitting the nail on the head like SW does in this video. In my practice I'm taking nice slow swings like RandyC does in his video.

https://youtu.be/v1pkfJtVq-8?t=153

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  #100  
Old 08-09-2019, 02:49 AM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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Originally Posted by deyo7 View Post
Yeah, very well could be true and something to be mindful of, but as I stand here in my office mindful of this I still feel like I actively use my wrist to hold the back edge of the disc in position for as long as possible...
If you are hugging yourself, the wrist wants to fly open. If you are hugging the disc with wide upper arm and/or elbow bent leading forward, the wrist will lag back closed until you stop/slow extending your elbow and/or hip rotation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2eWfwpahfk#t=2m10s


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