#51  
Old 05-20-2018, 01:03 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Originally Posted by Mando View Post
That's BS David...so a 0 for Woodshed is not egregious enough ? Really ?
The management is more interested in numbers, than accuracy. Wise up.
Drawing a line on that is a lot harder than it sounds. That review was his normal "I can't believe y'all think course like this are good" review that he did for every wooded course until you get to the car chase. The car chase is weird.

Is the car chase the reason he gave it a 0? It might have been a factor, but given his history I would have expected a 1 or a 1.5 from him for that course. If he docked it a point because he perceived that there was this car chase confrontation with the owner, is that really a big deal?

Take away the car chase and say he gave it a 1. It's still an outlier at a 1, but it's his opinion. We asked for his opinion and he gave it. We didn't say "we want your opinion so long as it's in line with everyone else's opinion."

I'm not unsympathetic to the course owner perspective. If I had a course that would be in the top 25 if you delete one review, I totally would want that review gone if I was trying to attract visits to my course. We can't really let private owners dictate which reviews stand and which don't, though. If we did that all the private courses would be rated 5's.

So it's damned if you do/damned if you don't. In some people's eyes we delegitimize the process by letting a 0 for The Woodshed stand because we all agree it's not a 0, but in some people's eyes we delegitimize the process by deleting a 0 for The Woodshed because we are enforcing groupthink and getting rid of reviews that stray too far from the conventional thinking. Either way, once that 0 for The Woodshed posted people were going to be unhappy.

I think we all get that if we built a disc golf course with our bare hands on our property and were kind enough to allow people to play it, it would be personally insulting for somebody to walk up to us after playing it and blurt out "That sucked!" in our face. When somebody rips a course in a review on this site and it lives there for years and years, it's like that guy getting to yell "That sucked!" in our face every day for the rest of time. That could be infuriating if you can't let it go, and some people just don't have the kind of personality to shrug that stuff off. We don't get to tell people whether a bad review of their course should bother them any more than we get to tell people they should enjoy wooded courses. I get why it's a hot-button issue with private owners and why it comes up all the time, and I wish there was a better answer. There just isn't a better answer. Just the slippery slope of a censored groupthink site.
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  #52  
Old 05-20-2018, 01:14 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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I don't remember details and can't link examples, but there was a guy on here years ago that was in Texas who also hated trees as a design element and had a thing out for Houck. You could tell from his reviews that he had designed a poorly regarded open course and he was upset that people didn't understand the challenge of throwing in the wind. Houck's courses are generally highly regarded AND use trees, and that was driving him crazy. He blasted a bunch of Houck courses with bad reviews.

Was that a vendetta? Or is "anything John Houck designed is garbage" a legitimate opinion? Sometimes it's hard to tell. You had to read all of his reviews to pick up on the theme, one by one they were just weird reviews that ranted about trees and wind and Houck. It just seemed like his opinion was "trees are bad, don't use them for disc golf." The Houck thing just seemed like a "I don't like trees, this course uses trees, Houck designed it, don't know why everybody says his course are good" thing. You had to combine them the perceive a vendetta against Houck.

All of that happened years ago before any reviews were deleted for any reason. It never crossed my mind to suggest that we get rid of them even though they struck me as crazy at the time.

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Last edited by Three Putt; 05-20-2018 at 01:17 PM.
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  #53  
Old 05-20-2018, 08:31 PM
philstine philstine is offline
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Originally Posted by Tripper View Post
That may be but a vendetta 0 disc rating will affect the overall rating much more than a homer 5 will.
Why?
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  #54  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:17 PM
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jjtwinnova jjtwinnova is offline
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Originally Posted by philstine View Post
Why?
If you have a course with an average of a four rating (4.0) with 9 reviews

A zero brings it to an average of 3.6 with ten reviews

(4x9=36)+0(10th review)/10 reviews

A five brings the average to a 4.1 with ten reviews

This is because a 5 is closer to the usual average rating, thus less effecting the overall average.

--------------------------------

A course that averages less than 2.5 will have the opposite.

1.0 on 9 reviews

A zero brings it to a 0.9

A five brings it to a 1.4

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  #55  
Old 05-20-2018, 10:29 PM
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scarpfish scarpfish is offline
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More often or not, outlier review scores are the sign of shameless homerism, a sourpuss blaming the course for his crappy play, or someone with obtuse tastes.

But sometimes, the outlier is right, and once they put a chink in some overhyped course's armor, it seems others are more comfortable throwing more rocks.

Groupthink is far more dangerous to the integrity of the review console than a few who go against the grain, although in an ideal world I'd prefer to do without either.

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  #56  
Old 05-23-2018, 11:59 PM
johnrhouck johnrhouck is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
I don't remember details and can't link examples, but there was a guy on here years ago that was in Texas who also hated trees as a design element and had a thing out for Houck. You could tell from his reviews that he had designed a poorly regarded open course and he was upset that people didn't understand the challenge of throwing in the wind. Houck's courses are generally highly regarded AND use trees, and that was driving him crazy. He blasted a bunch of Houck courses with bad reviews.

Was that a vendetta? Or is "anything John Houck designed is garbage" a legitimate opinion? Sometimes it's hard to tell. You had to read all of his reviews to pick up on the theme, one by one they were just weird reviews that ranted about trees and wind and Houck. It just seemed like his opinion was "trees are bad, don't use them for disc golf." The Houck thing just seemed like a "I don't like trees, this course uses trees, Houck designed it, don't know why everybody says his course are good" thing. You had to combine them the perceive a vendetta against Houck.

All of that happened years ago before any reviews were deleted for any reason. It never crossed my mind to suggest that we get rid of them even though they struck me as crazy at the time.
Scott, I'm pretty sure that was a vendetta. My memory is that if two courses had similar tree density, he would rate my course much lower. The evidence was clear enough that the DGCR powers-that-be felt justified in pulling the reviews. If someone hates my courses and has a reason for it (I can't imagine what that would be, of course) then that's fine. But that wasn't the case with this guy. I still haven't figured it out, because I had known him for 20+ years at that point, and I thought everything was fine.

I'm really surprised anyone remembers all that -- as I've said before, you're an impressive fellow. Thanks.

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  #57  
Old 05-24-2018, 12:28 AM
philstine philstine is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jjtwinnova View Post
If you have a course with an average of a four rating (4.0) with 9 reviews

A zero brings it to an average of 3.6 with ten reviews

(4x9=36)+0(10th review)/10 reviews

A five brings the average to a 4.1 with ten reviews

This is because a 5 is closer to the usual average rating, thus less effecting the overall average.

--------------------------------

A course that averages less than 2.5 will have the opposite.

1.0 on 9 reviews

A zero brings it to a 0.9

A five brings it to a 1.4
Which is precisely the point: the claim that a vendetta 0 rating will affect the overall rating more than a homer 5 is valid for a subset of courses with a higher than average rating, not across the board as Tripper's unqualified claim implies.
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  #58  
Old 05-24-2018, 12:49 AM
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jjtwinnova jjtwinnova is offline
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Originally Posted by philstine View Post
Which is precisely the point: the claim that a vendetta 0 rating will affect the overall rating more than a homer 5 is valid for a subset of courses with a higher than average rating, not across the board as Tripper's unqualified claim implies.
Maybe so, but most reviews of a 5 for a 2.5 or lower aren't really alarming to most people, because everybody knows it isn't a true 5. Now a zero for a 4.5, that knocks you out of top 10, and makes it less "playable."
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  #59  
Old 05-25-2018, 11:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarpfish View Post
More often or not, outlier review scores are the sign of shameless homerism, a sourpuss blaming the course for his crappy play, or someone with obtuse tastes.

But sometimes, the outlier is right, and once they put a chink in some overhyped course's armor, it seems others are more comfortable throwing more rocks.

Groupthink is far more dangerous to the integrity of the review console than a few who go against the grain, although in an ideal world I'd prefer to do without either.
This is spot on, sometimes the outlier is the true voice in a veritable sea of homer's, convinced to join up to give a course a 5.
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  #60  
Old 05-25-2018, 12:10 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
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True, though usually those Reality Check reviews come in at a 3 or 4, not a 0 or 1.

But scarpfish is right---once someone bursts the bubble, more are willing to follow. It's a familiar story with courses that make a dazzling debut; I know of 4 courses within 2 hours of me that have taken that path, to various degrees.
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