#581  
Old 09-02-2019, 12:15 PM
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zgmc zgmc is online now
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Originally Posted by Three Putt View Post
Because transgendered people exist and they do stuff. Some of them frolf. Some of them transitioned in a time when society in general was less accepting so they don't announce or advertise their story. Laura is lucky in a way that she feels like she can be open about it. Others might not feel that way, which says more about us than them.

So, yeah. We have been talking to transgender females on this message board for years. Surprised? You shouldn't be.
It’s not about any of that. Statistically it seems skewed. I would have guessed that there were 3 women on here total.
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  #582  
Old 09-02-2019, 04:43 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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I have no fears of lgbtq people. The only question here is fairness. Is it fair for natural born females if transitioned females are competing against them? Is it fair for transitioned females if they are told that they can’t compete?

I get it. Laura was always a female in her heart and in her mind and she needed her body to reflect that as much as our current medical science can allow. The truth of the matter is that if you are born male you will never be 100% physically female. Not with our current level of medical technology. Because of this, there will always be questions about fairness from somebody. And, the higher up the competitive ladder Laura goes, the louder those voices will be.
It's actually one of the kinder things I've read, whilst not necessarily "agreeing" with me playing in gender-protected divisions. And you don't HAVE to agree, I am not asking for that.
I thank you for your kind words.

And as for me going up the competitive ladder.
Follow my live scores @ HOFC / NT Finals in Appling, Georgia next month.
Or better still. Come and actually see me play. I'd love to actually talk
https://www.pdga.com/tour/event/38694#FPO

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  #583  
Old 09-03-2019, 12:39 AM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
See https://www.pdga.com/player/44969/history
In the last 12 months before transitioning, I averaged 900.

I've averaged 880 since I started transitioning (late aug '16).

I've averaged 877 since I started taking hormones (14dec17).
In most skill sports you're competing directly against someone else, so it's hard to quantify how much change in skill level came with transitioning. Disc golf is one of the few skill sports where you are competing against a course with a single metric (rating) that everyone is measured against, and not directly against other competition.

Obviously there is more to your skill level than just your transitioning, and a sample size of one is pretty small. However I think it would still be interesting to see how your rating changes compare to the expected difference for competitive male and female players.
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  #584  
Old 09-03-2019, 04:50 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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My power and stamina did. In a negative manner. I did lose a significant amount of distance, and stamina (I typically last 32 holes nowadays (ie. last 4 holes on a 2x18 day, I am physically dead) and explosive shots, like overhead, I actively stay away from them, to spare myself the embarrassment. I just can't clear trees like that, and I won't even try to "just go over the damn trees" any more (I never really could anyway, but a 30/40ft tree or so, I could somewhat handle).

See my previous "on the flat" 380/390ft drives, which was mostly a "is that all you've got, pffft?" box for a not-age-protected (19-39) of 40+ rated man.
I now barely shoot over 300/310ft anymore, and that puts me in the "eh, not bad at all" box among not-age-protected (19-39) of 40+ rated women. And that is nothing compared to the women who actually throw far, they throw 400ft+. I don't expect to be showcased in those "women who crush" videos that are doing the rounds nowadays.

The one skill where I did improve, is my mental game. I am calmer, less "caveman" if you will.
That is most visible in me having improved my putting percentage, and in my doing less "stupid attempts to try and execute 1100-rated shots to get out of the rough".

As far as rating changes go, I don't think there is any specific rating development for either male or female.
Any studies that have been done are focused on "how ratings change over time for age-protected divisions".
A man doesn't jump up or down in rating more than fenale, or in a different curve.
How the start of the curve is, is exclusively decided by "when - in your disc golf career - do you join PDGA". And I think the tapering off at the end of the curve is mostly similar. Neither McBeth or Pierce are expected to just jump up or dpwn 10 from now on, they'll pretty much just keep on creeping forward (+1 / -1) , until they decide to hang up their bags.

The only thing we can all see, is that a man's peak will typically be higher (about 90/100 points, it seems?) than a woman's. (see McBeth+Wysocki vs Allen+Pierce).


That obviously makes me, as I've jumped from the men's rankings to the women's rankings, "place" higher on the respective ladder, in this moment. My "just average" rating among men is a "eh, that's nice" among women.
With my 888, I'd be tied for 19,737th spot in the men's ranking among the 39,074 who have ANY rating (ie excluding "0" ratings). That puts me in the top 50th percentile on that scale.
In the women's raking, my 888 puts me tied 149th out of 2,928 with ANY rating, and that puts me in the top 5th percentile on that scale.

How my position on the women's scale will change over time, I don't know.
If I used my pre-transition rating (averaged 900 in the 12 months pre-transition) on these current scales (isn't fool-proof but is usable enough), I'd have been top 41st percentile in the current men's rankings, and top 3rd in women's.

Any changes to your rating are due to you performing against the pool of players you are in. It is to a lesser amount based on your skill level (but as you learn new tricks/control, or as your body gets weaker as you age, your ceiling changes).

One important consideration to make with regards to round ratings is this:
In Europe, there typically is only one layout at an event, in North America there typically is a shorter tee for women and/or the extreme ends of age-protected divisions, and/or lower amateur levels. Ie. in Europe, the women's rounds' scores are compared to that of the men's, in the USA that isn't necessarily so.
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  #585  
Old 09-03-2019, 04:51 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is online now
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
In most skill sports you're competing directly against someone else, so it's hard to quantify how much change in skill level came with transitioning. Disc golf is one of the few skill sports where you are competing against a course with a single metric (rating) that everyone is measured against, and not directly against other competition.
Huh? In disc golf you are competing against other players, not the course. Rated rounds are directly related to the performance of all the players playing the same course configuration, on that day. That's why the same score with different weather/course conditions can result in different rated rounds. Then there's the ratings factor, a pool of higher rated players tends to yield higher rated rounds compared to a pool with lower rated players. Even though that particular subject has been highly debated.

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Old 09-03-2019, 05:07 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is online now
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Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
One important consideration to make with regards to round ratings is this: In Europe, there typically is only one layout at an event, in North America there typically is a shorter tee for women and/or the extreme ends of age-protected divisions, and/or lower amateur levels. Ie. in Europe, the women's rounds' scores are compared to that of the men's, in the USA that isn't necessarily so.
Having even just one shorter/alternate tee for the FPO division allows ratings to be calculated solely against the FPO division which can impact FPO rated rounds more positively.

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  #587  
Old 09-03-2019, 05:23 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is online now
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Because of this, there will always be questions about fairness from somebody. And, the higher up the competitive ladder Laura goes, the louder those voices will be.
With all due respect to Laura, it would be interesting to see the impact socially/professionally of a much younger player, say someone in their 20's who transitions and plays FPO. Especially if the player has a high rating and starts climbing the elite ladder.
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  #588  
Old 09-03-2019, 05:54 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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With all due respect to Laura, it would be interesting to see the impact socially/professionally of a much younger player, say someone in their 20's who transitions and plays FPO. Especially if the player has a high rating and starts climbing the elite ladder.
No offense taken at all.
With all due respect to other 40+ players, I know very well that I have already peaked, athletically speaking. If anything, my transition, which medically started at age 42, sped up the decline attributed to progressing age.

Still, the physiological age someone transitions would be completely irrelevant, with regards to making any social/professional waves.
Although, for them, I hope that my winning AmWorlds was the tsunami, when it comes to the wrath and vitriol suffered. I bolstered myself to withstand all of the vitriol that I 'knew' was coming, in the hope that those who have yet to transition, or those who have transitioned, but are/were not strong enough yet/anymore to withstabd the vitriol, would have an easier time.

Regardless of whether I have helped raise acceptance about this topic with my winning AmWorlds, I have certainly made it a topic that is being discussed, and as such helped raise awareness and visibilty.

But it is my hope, from a romantic idealist's and "don't be an <BLEEP>"'s point of view, that through being as open as I can about my transition, with specific first-hand details you'd never ever know otherwise, I may have helped some people who were "on the fence" to err on the side of acceptance rather than ostracision, even if reluctantly so, with "I disagree for reasons X and Y, and think that mpre research is needed, but I'll accept the current reality.").

The only thing that will really make a difference in the disc golf community, is whether that person would be of noteworthy disc golf skill level prior to transition.

No one talked, or will talk, about their fears of an 800-rated 19yo male player transitioning.
Everybody screamed bloody murder at the hypothetical situation that Paul McBeth (or exchange for Feldberg/Schultz/Climo, all being 40+) would transition.
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  #589  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:07 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Having even just one shorter/alternate tee for the FPO division allows ratings to be calculated solely against the FPO division which can impact FPO rated rounds more positively.
CAN, but it can ALSO affect negatively. Like you said yourself regarding player pool deciding ratings, there is no guarantee that women would invariably benefit (with regards to round ratings, which would then affct player ratings) from having their own pool.
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  #590  
Old 09-03-2019, 06:42 AM
Smigles Smigles is offline
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No one talked, or will talk, about their fears of an 800-rated 19yo male player transitioning.
Everybody screamed bloody murder at the hypothetical situation that Paul McBeth (or exchange for Feldberg/Schultz/Climo, all being 40+) would transition.
I still see two sides to this whole story.

One is the personal level. You are feeling better now, and that is great. More true to yourself, i am all for that. It's amazing that we have the possibililty nowadays from a tecnical view but also that some societies (not all, yet) are accepting you as you wanna be. If you are happier that way, that's great.

But the other question is that of integrity of womans sports. You are not in a position where you transition and blow the entire womans field out of the water. Others are.

Rachel McKinnon became world champion after transitioning. Hannah Mouncey is just ridiculous, look at photos, she is like a head taller than all her opponents. Laurel Hubbard won gold medals left and right and the other women competing complained how unfair it is. There are more and more of these cases coming up.

You focus very much on the personal side and how great it is for you. You keep claiming how ridiculous the idea is for somebody to undergo such a transformation just for some gold medals. I am not saying the athletes i mentioned above just transformed for winning, but they ARE winning lots and lots after their transition.

As you said before, you went from a top 50% male to a top 5% woman while actually getting worse physical abilities like distance and stamina. Imagine you started this whole process as a top 5% or even top 1% male. In a sport that probably pays more money than disc golf. With professionals actually depending on that income from tournament wins.

I just think you dont really wanna see this side of the story. I see you very strongly emphasising the personal aspect. But you have to see the reality that many of us who dont know all the medical details and the personal stories of the individuals involved, all we see is the gender bender meme...

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