#781  
Old 10-11-2019, 10:57 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
Par Delusionary
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Years Playing: 45.4
Courses Played: 360
Posts: 4,930
Niced 1,644 Times in 808 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by biscoe View Post
From a game construction standpoint the weight Hole 17 carries is absurd. I still think that the higher the score attainable the greater the engagement though. People remember McCray's blowup there precisely because the number was so high. It appeals to the same lowest common denominator lizard brain within people as reality tv. How important that is depends on the goals of the event.
I don't think the engagement was because of the numbers. Especially not the numbers that require math. Figuring out and then adding the number of penalty throws is not lizard brain stuff.

I think the engagement came from the obviousness of whether the throw was good or bad, the expression on his face, the humiliation of not being able to advance, the act of moving his whole bag to the tee pad in resignation.

And yes, from the knowledge that his chances of winning were being eroded. But, all that lizard brain engagement would have happened if it were simply re-throw, instead of re-throw and add an imaginary throw. Until he made the island, no one knew if he ever would. It would have been easier for everyone to stay involved it they only had to count the number of times the disc left his hand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiscJunkie View Post
Steve, seems like we had this disagreement last year about H17.

I still disagree with your conclusions that laying up is a low-benefit strategy.
Nothing is without risk, admittedly, but laying up at H17 this year was relatively safe and the second throw is ~200' downhill and open.
There was a wide, flat space to lay up, about 80' in front of the tee. Plus, a lay up gives you a clear view of the green and allows a hyzer onto the green.
If H17 doesn't have this lay-up area, the discussion changes.
If the players feel like they have to go for the green from the tee, they bear the consequences.
It may be a question of practice in Conrad's case, but the lay-up is a safer play and especially for players who are tired or stressed and under pressure, it's good strategy.
I did not say it is a low benefit strategy. It's better than going for the target. It's just not the highest benefit strategy. Laying up results in a slightly higher average score than going for the middle of the island, but a lower average score than going for the target.

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupicka View Post
I laid up every time when I played in 2012. Laying up was an easy high percentage toss. Hitting the green from the layup area is a much easier shot than from the tee. I went 4434 and I'm a sub 900 player... I also wasn't worrying about my finish position so the mental stress of the hole didn't affect me as much.

The stat showing the stress of that hole on the leaders: Top 9 finishers averaged 4.7 for Hole 17 in R4. Next 9 finishers averaged 3.7 for Hole 17. That hole gets in a player's head so much more when the title is on the line. Every player knows the history of that hole. If you want the title, you have to pass that test.
Yes, laying up is easy and high percentage. But, it's not 100%. Also, it costs the player a throw before even trying for the island. That extra throw, plus the small chance of an OB lay up, is enough cost so that it is better to try to land safely on the island.

That changes if the player's main concern is something other than minimizing their expected score.

If avoiding a high score is essential, the trade-off of reducing the chance at a 2 or 3 to maximizing the chance of getting no more than 4 makes laying up the smart play.

If getting a birdie is essential, the trade-off of increasing the chance at 4, 5, or more in exchange for increasing the chance at a 2 makes going for the target the smart play.




My point is that the hole is well-designed, with multiple options that create interesting strategic choices which can change based on the situation. I think it would be better without the OB penalties. It's features and character would remain the same and it would not have such an outsized impact on final results.

Perhaps the size of the island would need to be tweaked, or the lay-up zone modified to get the balance between strategies re-optimized.
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #782  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:42 AM
jakebake91 jakebake91 is offline
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: West Central Wisconsin
Years Playing: 3.4
Courses Played: 6
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 791
Niced 494 Times in 265 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by OldSchoolDad View Post
a.k.a. The U.S. Sidearm Championships
This was probably hashed out already earlier, but I didn't wanna soft through all the pages to find out. It's been called a sidearm tourney, but the winner of the event threw what, one bad sidearm? Pretty interesting!
Reply With Quote
  #783  
Old 10-11-2019, 11:48 AM
Cgkdisc's Avatar
Cgkdisc Cgkdisc is offline
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Twin Cities
Years Playing: 30.6
Courses Played: 692
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 12,181
Niced 1,527 Times in 694 Posts
Default

I agree that going for the center of the green in general is statistically better than going at the pin or laying up under calm weather conditions or at least ones you've practiced. However, in the event you're faced with different weather conditions than those practiced, I believe the layup will be easier to execute under stress and more likely to produce lower average scores than going for the middle of the green unless you are lefty or throw RHFH.
Reply With Quote
  #784  
Old 10-11-2019, 12:20 PM
Jolt Jolt is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Sweden
Posts: 2,238
Niced 1,284 Times in 750 Posts
Default

Just looked at the Jomez Highlights. . .and wow that last putt from James hit the chains very high. . CLOSE to hit the top band
Reply With Quote
  #785  
Old Today, 04:18 AM
Chains Bailey Chains Bailey is offline
Bogey Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: VIRGINIA
Posts: 67
Niced 21 Times in 11 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future_Primitive View Post
On a positive note, I though Jamie and the Champ were pretty good on the mic. Loved the insight the Champ brought to the mental side of it and was willing to call bad shots or putts what they were, bad. Definitely more Champ on the mic.
SpinTV has always produced some of the highest quality coverage, but the thing that stood out to me the most was "the Champ ... was willing to call bad shots or putts what they were, bad."

It was refreshing to hear and I am not aware of many, if any, other commentators being this straight forward an honest.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #786  
Old Today, 09:35 AM
Streets's Avatar
Streets Streets is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Years Playing: 9
Courses Played: 46
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 9,009
Niced 3,817 Times in 1,628 Posts
Default

Highlights from Jerm's Round...props to this guy for catching some of it.

Reply With Quote
  #787  
Old Today, 10:24 AM
elmexdela elmexdela is online now
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Courses Played: 194
Posts: 7,788
Niced 1,722 Times in 1,002 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Streets View Post
Highlights from Jerm's Round...props to this guy for catching some of it.

his reaction on hole 17 was great

hes so smooth
Reply With Quote
 

  #788  
Old Today, 10:53 AM
Baked's Avatar
Baked Baked is online now
Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Georgia
Years Playing: 4.5
Courses Played: 44
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 632
Niced 286 Times in 126 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
I think the engagement came from the obviousness of whether the throw was good or bad, the expression on his face, the humiliation of not being able to advance, the act of moving his whole bag to the tee pad in resignation.
What year was this and is there video available?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
2015 United States Disc Golf Championship Halcσn Tournaments & Leagues 1077 11-06-2015 10:19 PM
Survey for disc golf players in the United States Nina General Disc Golf Chat 41 04-19-2015 08:32 PM
2014 United States Disc Golf Championship Halcσn Tournaments & Leagues 1936 11-08-2014 09:17 PM
2012 United States Disc Golf Championship USDGC GUtz Tournaments & Leagues 16 02-26-2012 02:16 PM
United States Disc Golf Championships - 2009 asu225 General Disc Golf Chat 8 10-02-2009 11:39 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.