Critic this is back

[sidewinder22]

Originally Posted by navel

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd say that you should focus on the angle between torso and thigh instead of calf to thigh. Watch any video of a pro throwing. You'll see that the angle thigh-calf differs quite a bit. The angle torso-thigh however is very close to 90 degrees first in the back leg during backswing, then when compressing for brace on the front leg while swinging through. You might have to watch it from different angles. Can be a bit hard to see in a side view.
The calf-thigh angle is more individual and has more to do with where your balance is and how you are built. Same concept as in weightlifting deadlifts and/or squats.

A good way your balance through the swing:
Put your middle fingers on your knee (right on right, left on left). Now stride laterally. Find your athletic balance (relaxed and powerful). You shouldn't fall over. Nobody should be able to push you over easily from any side of the body.
That's how much you should lean over, how deep your hips need to be, how to feel a better connection legs to torso and shoulders, it makes it harder to tilt, easier to feel the balance and the weight shift. It's a pretty good drill for balance in my opinion. If you want to try the whole throwing motion then just let the front fingers leave the front knee in backswing and let the back fingers leave the back leg when you brace and throw.

I wouldn't really focus on any one body angle or position. They are all changing and all about dynamic balance and posture and feel.

[navel]

Originally Posted by sidewinder22

I wouldn't really focus on any one body angle or position. They are all changing and all about dynamic balance and posture and feel.

Everything is changing through the throw. I had good balance and threw well before, but getting deeper without losing balance in any direction did me a ton of good.
I'd say most people are standing taller than they need to and it affects how much they can turn, how balanced they are, how quickly they can shift weight/pressure and so on...
Thinking about keeping the thigh-shoulder angle 90 degrees in regards to where the disc is (back leg in back swing changing to front leg when swinging forward) is good as a drill in my opinion. Otherwise you might tend to stand tall and sway. I've seen people do that all the time. As soon as they get deeper and are more "sitting down" a lot of things seem to correct itself.
It obviously doesn't need to be a part of the thought process when throwing. It's just a drill for getting the feel right of going deeper and be more balanced and athletic. Overcompensate then adjust back. Easier than to try it bit by bit. Translates to most parts.


Maybe there's a better way to get the idea through? How would you correct someone to a balanced and athletic position that's low and deep?

[sidewinder22]

You are pulling/dragging the disc by it's nose, instead of pushing/leveraging it out from the thumb/handle. Internally rotate your shoulder so your elbow points out and goes up above hand and hand on the top of the disc. Hand should be above disc the entire pre-swing/pump all the way to finish in this drill. Lower arm swings disc in and out from the elbow.

[sidewinder22]

Originally Posted by navel

I'd say most people are standing taller than they need to and it affects how much they can turn, how balanced they are, how quickly they can shift weight/pressure and so on...
Thinking about keeping the thigh-shoulder angle 90 degrees in regards to where the disc is (back leg in back swing changing to front leg when swinging forward) is good as a drill in my opinion. Otherwise you might tend to stand tall and sway. I've seen people do that all the time. As soon as they get deeper and are more "sitting down" a lot of things seem to correct itself.
It obviously doesn't need to be a part of the thought process when throwing. It's just a drill for getting the feel right of going deeper and be more balanced and athletic. Overcompensate then adjust back. Easier than to try it bit by bit. Translates to most parts.


Maybe there's a better way to get the idea through? How would you correct someone to a balanced and athletic position that's low and deep?

I think this is getting too generalized. I've seen an epidemic of players that are starting too crouched and need to get taller in the setup and beginning of the backswing to drop and leverage lower into transition to the forward swing. They crouch too much into the backswing and then end up extending/standing up out of the throw. The up/down motion pattern is backwards.



Standing taller helps you rotate faster/acceleration. Getting lower/deeper helps you leverage and pump the swing.

[navel]

Originally Posted by sidewinder22

I think this is getting too generalized. I've seen an epidemic of players that are starting too crouched and need to get taller in the setup and beginning of the backswing to drop and leverage lower into transition to the forward swing. They crouch too much into the backswing and then end up extending/standing up out of the throw. The up/down motion pattern is backwards.



Standing taller helps you rotate faster/acceleration. Getting lower/deeper helps you leverage and pump the swing.

Good example. I haven't seen that crouch -> stand tall -> crouch movement as much, but maybe I have just missed it or not looked for it.

The most common error I've seen has been more stand tall -> stand tall -> stand tall. More of a straight line then a rise or a dip.
They tend to miss out on the vertical pump, as well as twist themselves up in order to "reach back" as far as they've seen pros do. Not rotating shoulders back from the hips up but instead twisting the whole body as much as they can.

Here's a few random screen captures of different pros when the weight is shifted forward.
The angle is closer to 110 degrees maybe? (Jarvis is on another level though. It's not easy to be as compact in the swing. I wish I could) When throwing 110 degrees sit down feels like 90, at least to me.
I've got a few vids on my phone from friends and family throwing that I don't feel comfortable sharing without their consent, but almost everyone of them are closer to 180 degrees than 90 degrees.

(The angle calf to thigh is also easy to see in the attached pictures. Differs a bit as well.)











All in all I agree that you need to go from tall to crouched to tall again. I just don't see the problem with imagining angles to get a feel for it. Once it feels right you will quickly stop thinking about keeping angles through the throw and it will be more fluid.

How would you teach a correct up-down-up movement pattern as well as being balanced with the hips deep and the legs powerful, all at the same time? I could really use some help teaching it. To me it just feels natural, but it can be difficult to get it across to someone who feels something entirely different than I do.

[sidewinder22]

Originally Posted by navel

How would you teach a correct up-down-up movement pattern as well as being balanced with the hips deep and the legs powerful, all at the same time? I could really use some help teaching it. To me it just feels natural, but it can be difficult to get it across to someone who feels something entirely different than I do.

[navel]

I see what you are saying with the gifs, but how would you do the same thing in words? Short and snappy. "Don't think about angles but instead... *insert words here*"

How do I explain the pump and standing tall to someone who isn't that interested in form or are willing to practice kicking the can or doing windmill drills?
Putting the top of your fingers on your knees and focusing on feeling athletic and balanced moving laterally has worked from ok to great when instructing beginners or those who struggle with form, in a matter of seconds. It's not perfect or the way to throw for sure, but it gets the feeling of being centered, balanced, athletic and having a good counterweight for your swing. Of course you still need to stand tall in backswing and finish.

[sidewinder22]

Originally Posted by navel

I see what you are saying with the gifs, but how would you do the same thing in words? Short and snappy. "Don't think about angles but instead... *insert words here*"

How do I explain the pump and standing tall to someone who isn't that interested in form or are willing to practice kicking the can or doing windmill drills?
Putting the top of your fingers on your knees and focusing on feeling athletic and balanced moving laterally has worked from ok to great when instructing beginners or those who struggle with form, in a matter of seconds. It's not perfect or the way to throw for sure, but it gets the feeling of being centered, balanced, athletic and having a good counterweight for your swing. Of course you still need to stand tall in backswing and finish.

How would you run laterally and then change direction and hit something?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZlyD1ynQrh4#t=3m26s

[lucasgg]

thanks for hijacking my thread guys. It really got me thinking. What about a elephant walk drill hybridized with Paige's stride drill? I can post video of what I'm thinking

[navel]

Sorry for the hijack lucas. Sometimes you just get caught up in something. This thread has been a good read, and I hope it continues that way. I could continue this discussion somewhere else if there's a better place for it. It's still a sidetrack on the calf to thigh angle somewhat at least.

Originally Posted by sidewinder22

I appreciate this gif SW. That's more or less what I meant this whole time.
Most people, talking from my own experience, will respond better to form instructions that aren't too technical or are directly applicable to the throw.
Instructions like: "imagine pulling on a door frame", "imagine rubbing your butt against a wall behind you", "throw standing on one leg and the balance will follow", "move your arm like a windmill before throwing and the timing will correct itself".
Instead of: "Your arm should be 90 degrees here and here, and you should time the backswing with your lead foot. Put your disc two inches lower and angle it like this..." I know that you know this since you've made a lot of great videos on all the previous quotes.

The only problem I've encountered is that some people can't imagine running laterally and hitting something because they've never done anything similar to it before.
They don't know how to pull on something with their whole weight behind it.
They've never swung something heavy like a hammer in a correct way.
Or they have, but can't imagine it in a throw. Then what do you do?

Either way, the top gif in your response has been an eye opener for me before, but it would never work while instructing some of my friends and family. They would listen and then go back to throw like they use to, thinking they've made a change.
The bottom gif is so much better for this. You can get the feel right without trying to move like in a disc golf throw. It gets people out of their comfort zone. Then they can adjust back to the throw from the feel instead of trying to find the feel in their throw.

But still, I don't know if I'm missing something or not. Without forcing someone to drill for 10 minutes I don't see a great way to teach the balanced backswing -> settle down and leverage -> push of against the ground, without it being too technical or without having them do an arrangement of drills (while all being good). Drills that might take them too much time if the interest is lacking. That's why I've been leaning on teaching the squat position for deadlifts instead. It's easy to teach in a few seconds and most people will feel their balance and how to adjust right away. It's also easy to remember the fingers on the knees if you loose the feeling for it.
I've never seen a problem with people going from low to high to low from that instruction.
If you think that it will get people down the wrong path I will stop giving that tip to people. I have too much respect for your knowledge. I'll see if I can come up with something better that's an easy fix for standing tall through the trow, rising up way before the hit or if the whole throw is going in the opposite motion (down-up-down) that you've opened my eye to. Thanks for your time, and sorry again if this is only interesting to me and no one else.