Casual water - "in play"

[Casey 1988]

Originally Posted by araytx

OH, OK. Interesting. Would you posit that something like that be part of disc golf as well?

well to do something like this in disc golf would not work as well, disc sizes not all uniform nor plastic. Golf balls are much closer in a set of size for the major 5 sizes of ball USGA, PGA, and PGA Europe, and the top Amateur Europe league that I am not sure the name, that also all 4, each organization has a drop height standard too where the balls are going to the same height levels when dropped.

Discs can be from a floppy Blunt Gumputt Blowfly/II where the disc would flop where it sat, to a stiff as legal Wizard in medium and hard, or even some rubber discs like the regular average run of R-Pro discs, even some oop Viberam discs in rubber that bounce quite a bit. Also what about potential rollaway with most discs save for the DGS Steady Ed plastic ?

No I like the solution that disc golf has as then the drop issue is not in play as much and now allowing for bigger causal water/casual hazard.

[Chains Bailey]

I want to revisit this and the reasoning is the rule itself seems absurd to me - and the interpretation + evident loop-holes allow for what I would consider bending the rules beyond fair play.

(In this post, I am not referring creeks, ponds, rivers, oceans and lakes or OB/Drop zones/Roads etc..just PUDDLES)


Here are 2 examples and I would like to know if these are really how you think things should play out according to the rules -

1. - 600FT hole - straight away, dirt fairway, flat.

Player A and B tee off - both throw 300FT straight down the fairway and land about 15 feet apart.

They walk up, both having 300FT left to the hole - player A and B BOTH landed in the same puddle area, that is impossible to throw out of safely or with any accuracy. A run up would involve serious risk to the player.

Player A takes FREE relief and walks back (In line with the basket) about 8FT to perfectly dry land.
Player B can NOT take relief and has to attempt to throw from the puddle area.

Why? Because...

- Where player A landed, there was about a 1/4" of water covering their disc completely and spreading about 6-8FT outward in a oval.

- Where player B landed was just mud, not even a glimmer of water on top, just mud.

Player A gets a full run up and perfect footing - player B has to throw from a standing position, no run up and hard to even balance in the thick mud.

Fair?

There are about 30 similar puddles all over the course - so, deeming all of them hazards would be a nightmare. Additionally, even if ALL were deemed hazards, it would only be where water was visible - not the sides' of the puddles that are just mud now.
_______________________________

2. - Walk up to my lie - in a puddle, but a perfect open line for my up shot = stand in puddle.
Walk up to my lie - in a puddle, NO upshot at all, trees right in front of me - luckily, the puddle is large, so I just simply walk back (Still in the puddle) in line with the basket until there is an open line for an upshot - this is the place I deem safe enough to throw from.

Fair?

We all have played on courses littered with puddles during a rainy event. It has never crossed my mind, until now, that I can CHOOSE when to take relief, or not, from puddles all over a course that will change my angles and shots drastically.


The above scenarios, among other reasons, are why I have always assumed (Incorrectly) that you play the disc where it lies, whether in a puddle or not - even a puddle that is huge and 6 inches deep, walk in and throw your next shot.

In my gut, I still believe that everyone should play from where their disc lands, period. We stand in/on rocks, bushes, wedge our feet in between trees, roots, sides of hills, thorns...everything. Yet, we get free relief from a puddle? While I appreciate the safety concerns, I think every sport has inherent risks involved and the above places we stand to throw, walk through, generally traverse are part of the risks we choose to take.

IMO, specifically allowing for relief from puddles is unnecessary and opens up unfair advantages on an relatively equal playing field. By playing field, I am referring to the literal ground we stand on.

Part of my reasoning is in the above two examples, if you are required to play it where it lands, then in scenario 1. - both players would have to play from a muddy/horrible lie. In scenario 2. - the opportunity for manipulating your decision to take relief based the BEST line or creating a NEW line to the basket is gone.

I realize that there are going to be circumstances where one person lands in a puddle and another on dry land AND they are only 15 feet apart, but that I feel is akin to one player landing behind a tree and the other player in the open, still only 15 feet apart. Good and bad breaks, but not manipulatable after the shots have landed.

If a TD can declare certain water areas (Puddles) in-play - can a TD declare ALL water areas (Puddles) in play? In other words - take away this optional puddle relief?

[Chains Bailey]

Just reread the thread - I basically asked the same thing earlier as the above post.

Something just does not sit right with this rule to me. Most probably that I do not like it, which is meaningless. I will simply have to accept it and move on.

[Cgkdisc]

Originally Posted by Chains Bailey

If a TD can declare certain water areas (Puddles) in-play - can a TD declare ALL water areas (Puddles) in play? In other words - take away this optional puddle relief?

Yes. I played in a tournament where the skies opened up during the lunch break between rounds and much of the course had an inch or five of water. Complicating things were the few holes with creeks running through them that were normally OB and their edges in many places couldn't be seen. The TD disallowed casual water relief in the second round (the rain had eased up) unless you couldn't find your disc which was likely in the creek. In that case, you got the OB penalty and carefully tried to find a place near where it disappeared that you could take a stance in a few inches of water.

The water stuck around as puddles for a few days. For rec play, players would take casual relief. However, if a sanctioned league day would have been played two days later, the TD could have continued to disallow casual relief for remaining puddles, and if players wanted to take relief anyway, it would have cost them a stroke.

But why make players play from a temporary crummy lie? There are fluky lies a few feet apart all over the place that have nothing to do with water. A course designer and TDs job is to design or play courses with "fair" ways. The default casual relief rule does a good but not perfect job to keep the fairways playing as fairly as intended and the other inbounds areas as challenging as intended without TD oversight unless special conditions arise where TD intervention makes sense.

[1978]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

Yes. I played in a tournament where the skies opened up during the lunch break between rounds and much of the course had an inch or five of water. Complicating things were the few holes with creeks running through them that were normally OB and their edges in many places couldn't be seen. The TD disallowed casual water relief in the second round (the rain had eased up) unless you couldn't find your disc which was likely in the creek. In that case, you got the OB penalty and carefully tried to find a place near where it disappeared that you could take a stance in a few inches of water.

The water stuck around as puddles for a few days. For rec play, players would take casual relief. However, if a sanctioned league day would have been played two days later, the TD could have continued to disallow casual relief for remaining puddles, and if players wanted to take relief anyway, it would have cost them a stroke.

But why make players play from a temporary crummy lie? There are fluky lies a few feet apart all over the place that have nothing to do with water. A course designer and TDs job is to design or play courses with "fair" ways. The default casual relief rule does a good but not perfect job to keep the fairways playing as fairly as intended and the other inbounds areas as challenging as intended without TD oversight unless special conditions arise where TD intervention makes sense.

This was an ok 13,000 +1 post :-)

[Chains Bailey]

Originally Posted by Cgkdisc

Yes. I played in a tournament where the skies opened up during the lunch break between rounds and much of the course had an inch or five of water. Complicating things were the few holes with creeks running through them that were normally OB and their edges in many places couldn't be seen. The TD disallowed casual water relief in the second round (the rain had eased up) unless you couldn't find your disc which was likely in the creek. In that case, you got the OB penalty and carefully tried to find a place near where it disappeared that you could take a stance in a few inches of water.

The water stuck around as puddles for a few days. For rec play, players would take casual relief. However, if a sanctioned league day would have been played two days later, the TD could have continued to disallow casual relief for remaining puddles, and if players wanted to take relief anyway, it would have cost them a stroke.

But why make players play from a temporary crummy lie? There are fluky lies a few feet apart all over the place that have nothing to do with water. A course designer and TDs job is to design or play courses with "fair" ways. The default casual relief rule does a good but not perfect job to keep the fairways playing as fairly as intended and the other inbounds areas as challenging as intended without TD oversight unless special conditions arise where TD intervention makes sense.

Typed a lot, deleted it - the following is more succinct: (This amuses me also)

I agree, and mentioned, that there are "fluky" lies that occur on the course, but one set of fluky lies you are required to play from the lie - the other set of fluky lies has a rule in place that offers the opportunity for manipulating one lie, but not the other.

Making decisions, within that rule, to take relief based your preferred line or creating a NEW line strikes me as very unfair. All four lies are on the course, but only in one instance can the player manipulate their lie AFTER the throw. (Again, referring to specifically puddles)

Another option that would clear up what I see as problematic, would be to require relief to be taken to nearest point (In line with the target) where there is no visible water and get rid of the optional part. That way there is no room for manipulating the rule - everyone who throws in that puddle goes back behind it, no choosing your preferred angle within the puddle.

There are dozens of dangerous terrains/areas we play on/thru/in...I do not think puddles (Casual water) should be anything other than one of those terrains/areas. A puddle seems almost pedestrian compared to other dangerous terrains/areas we play on/thru/in. Why not free relief from "Casual mud" - "Hillsides over 30degrees in angle" - "Rocks over 6 inches in height"? Where do we draw the line? (I know, puddles)

I have the same thoughts about moving a hanging branch in your throwing motion. 99% of the time you could simply reach to one side or the other and throw freely, but the rule allows you to choose your PRFERRED throwing motion verse AVAILABLE throwing motion. And then there is the abandoned throw rule which appears to be a lazy way to increase speed of play that flies in the face of playing the game organically and disregards the spirit of the game in general, IMO.


Maybe I am just turning into a grumpy old man or my OCD hates the outlier of "puddles" in all the crappy terrain we play in all the time. And yes, this is the short version.

[Muddyboots]

Originally Posted by Chains Bailey

Typed a lot, deleted it - the following is more succinct: (This amuses me also)


Maybe I am just turning into a grumpy old man or my OCD hates the outlier of "puddles" in all the crappy terrain we play in all the time. And yes, this is the short version.

You've been a grumpy old man for years. Going to start calling you puddles. This thread evokes memories of Sherando.

KP