MVP Disc Sports (Official Thread) (Part V)

[ThrowaEnvy]

Originally Posted by Erknjerk

I do like the flight if my Eclipse Envy, a tad less stable than my CN.

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I will ditto that, I really like the eclipse flights, very close to neutron stability with the full glow "plate" . Since I'm out of neutrons let alone CN's.... (Well not out, I got two Marm-O B.B. ones I haven't thrown yet and one Marm-soft -O plague doctor I have)... point is I find it like proton with a little wear, tightest "S" possible with a touch less HSS and LSS. Really just a sweet blend for an Envy.. And it glows, been playing that last few nights..

Kinda thinking about a glow Pilot....

[discerdoo]

Originally Posted by ThrowaEnvy

I will ditto that, I really like the eclipse flights, very close to neutron stability with the full glow "plate" . Since I'm out of neutrons let alone CN's.... (Well not out, I got two Marm-O B.B. ones I haven't thrown yet and one Marm-soft -O plague doctor I have)... point is I find it like proton with a little wear, tightest "S" possible with a touch less HSS and LSS. Really just a sweet blend for an Envy.. And it glows, been playing that last few nights..

Kinda thinking about a glow Pilot....

You play at night in that creepy blair witch forrest? Glow Pilot would probably be cool but I have absolutely no use for one.

[Erknjerk]

Only thing about the glow envy is that it's hard to see fly with a non glow rim.

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[ThrowaEnvy]

Originally Posted by discerdoo

You play at night in that creepy blair witch forrest? Glow Pilot would probably be cool but I have absolutely no use for one.

Haha and ironically enough lost my glow envy just now ha ha. Somewhere in the salaal, It's nice out, quiet rain, low smoky dusk.. No cougar or bears here, just raccoons and owls.. I like the forest at night...

But yeah hole after #11 I posted it eats all my discs haha every time at dusk..

The newer Halloween crave was easy to see, fluorescent yellow rim meeting up with the glow rim.. Yeah the Envy disappeared on me more easily.. **** shot on a hard tunnel. A pilot might have held it, didn't throw the Tangent after the first two fails..

[Jacobpaul81]

Originally Posted by jakebake91

Cooling processes SHOULD be standardized. They shouldn't be drastically different from run to run.

and yet we have 40 years of evidence to suggest otherwise - You can't fight nature. Temperature and Humidity are not controllable. They vary day to day and hour by hour - and the brisker the process, the more heat people and the process will generate within a given space. You can no more consistently cool plastic discs than you can consistently smoke a brisket. They aren't making discs in a climate controlled clean room.

This topic has been discussed for decades - and the concensus opinion is that it's impossible to be consistent disc after disc after disc because different rates of cooling occur even on the same day... and this is going to be even more inconsistent with the Axiom line where discs are molded up in 2 different colors. The only way to find discs with 100% consistent flights is to grab multiples at the same time from the same retailer in the same color. Accept and move on.

As for the color vs plastic type..... absolutely untrue. Different plastics shrink at different values (I can happily show you the chart, it's in my toolbox). This would cause the disc to mold up slightly different in different plastics.

Yes, and when you change the temp and humdity, the plastics respond differently. Yes, you will see variation from plastic to plastic - but you will see as much variation from color to color within the same plastic as you do from plastic to plastic. Note- it's not the Color that's causing the difference - it's time and place. Color is simply a signifier of when a disc was manufactured. The rates will always be impacted by Temp and Humidity. In my bag, right now, I have a beefy Crave in Neutron, a moderatly stable Crave in Proton, and a flip-tastic Crave in Eclipse. If the plastic were a consistent way of discerning flight - those would most likley be in reverse order.

The whole "hiding the run" thing.....either you have WAY more inside information than I, or are completely clueless about injection molding.

Way over-reading my comment. Dial down the fanboy rhetoric and think logically for a moment- By making cosmic discs, they are essentially masking the buyers ability to discern if a disc will fly more or less stable than another disc of the same mold because there are not solid colors to base that evaluation on. I'm not saying it's intentional. I'm just saying that it could be. From a marketing standpoint - it's certainly better to mask flight differences to avoid discussions like this one. Me - I'll stick to solid color discs to ensure flight consistency.

That's not at all what's happening there. Even with standard plastics, you couldn't tell one weeks run apart from the next, unless they labeled them different or some kind of physical change took place in the tooling or something.

Yes you can. It's very easy to determine that 2 discs which share the same coloring which are available from the same retailer were manufactured on the same day - those discs were likely made within minutes of one another. Prior to Cosmic, they produced one color at a time - they weren't making green, blue, yellow, red all at the same time. You'd get minor color swirls when they switched over from color to color - but it was consistent solid colors. I generally buy 2-4 of the same mold at the same time from the same retailer for exactly this reason. I'm making certain I will get a consistent flight from each disc I buy.

Also "tweaking" the mold, implying that the cavity or core of the mold (molding surfaces) were modified, is something thats VERY unlikely to be happening with any kind of frequency.

The Richardsons say they've tweaked the Volt mold to be more in line with their original design. Take that for what you will. I got no dog in this show. I don't throw Volts.

[Jacobpaul81]

Originally Posted by KrisDG

OK, let me name a few things that determine the final shape of injection molded disc. Apart from a mold itself of course.

1. a chemical composition of used plastic
2. injection temperature
3. mold temperature
4. injection pressure - product density
4. mold time
5. the way of how discs are transported from a mold to a cooling area
6. cooling intensity (cooling area temperature) and direction of air flow

Probably missed something, but the point is, that changing any of those will change the outcome.

So now you have a hint of why none of the manufacturers products are consistent and why I would strongly suggest to start thinking of rating the discs not only by the design of the mold, but in combination of by the actual outcome. Precision (laser) measurement equipment is not expensive. All they need are a couple of DIY capable hardware and software engineers to come up with solutions.

This is 100% why I buy a pile of discs at one time all in the same color from the same retailer. Guarantees consistency across my discs. My lack of arm consistency doesn't need disc variations throwing it off!

[jakebake91]

Originally Posted by Jacobpaul81

and yet we have 40 years of evidence to suggest otherwise - You can't fight nature. Temperature and Humidity are not controllable. They vary day to day and hour by hour - and the brisker the process, the more heat people and the process will generate within a given space. You can no more consistently cool plastic discs than you can consistently smoke a brisket. They aren't making discs in a climate controlled clean room.

This topic has been discussed for decades - and the concensus opinion is that it's impossible to be consistent disc after disc after disc because different rates of cooling occur even on the same day... and this is going to be even more inconsistent with the Axiom line where discs are molded up in 2 different colors. The only way to find discs with 100% consistent flights is to grab multiples at the same time from the same retailer in the same color. Accept and move on.



Yes, and when you change the temp and humdity, the plastics respond differently. Yes, you will see variation from plastic to plastic - but you will see as much variation from color to color within the same plastic as you do from plastic to plastic. Note- it's not the Color that's causing the difference - it's time and place. Color is simply a signifier of when a disc was manufactured. The rates will always be impacted by Temp and Humidity. In my bag, right now, I have a beefy Crave in Neutron, a moderatly stable Crave in Proton, and a flip-tastic Crave in Eclipse. If the plastic were a consistent way of discerning flight - those would most likley be in reverse order.



Way over-reading my comment. Dial down the fanboy rhetoric and think logically for a moment- By making cosmic discs, they are essentially masking the buyers ability to discern if a disc will fly more or less stable than another disc of the same mold because there are not solid colors to base that evaluation on. I'm not saying it's intentional. I'm just saying that it could be. From a marketing standpoint - it's certainly better to mask flight differences to avoid discussions like this one. Me - I'll stick to solid color discs to ensure flight consistency.



Yes you can. It's very easy to determine that 2 discs which share the same coloring which are available from the same retailer were manufactured on the same day - those discs were likely made within minutes of one another. Prior to Cosmic, they produced one color at a time - they weren't making green, blue, yellow, red all at the same time. You'd get minor color swirls when they switched over from color to color - but it was consistent solid colors. I generally buy 2-4 of the same mold at the same time from the same retailer for exactly this reason. I'm making certain I will get a consistent flight from each disc I buy.



The Richardsons say they've tweaked the Volt mold to be more in line with their original design. Take that for what you will. I got no dog in this show. I don't throw Volts.

Temperature and humidity ARE controllable. Climate controlled buildings and/or rooms anyone? It is possible. I've seen it.

Also. Having seen molding processes first hand, going to again disagree about the run/color thing. You have no idea how long a disc sat on a retailers shelf before you bought it. You don't know how long it sat in the manufacturers warehouse before the retailer got it. It is EXTREMELY possible that two identical discs of the same color were ran way farther apart than two discs of the same color. The could switch colors 5 times in one run. Then pull off that run and do another run in 2 months running 5 colors.

It's just as possible that two discs of different colors were ran in the same run vs same colors. The time at which you buy them means absolutely nothing. Example: I bought two Anodes, of the same exact color, and the same exact time, from the same retailer. One was stamped with flight numbers, one wasn't. Likely not the same run, but available at the same time at the same place. Had the stamp not changed, you'd never have known.


As far as "fanboy rhetoric", yes I'll admit to really liking MVP, and for many reasons. However, my arguments and comments here are based more on personal experience building injection molds, working in QC of a molding facility, and first hand experience in injection molding. I've seen it. I've built and maintained the tools. I'm simply sharing personal experiences.

We all can have our superstitious beliefs. That's all perfectly fine. We are all entitled to our beliefs.

[uncle pennybags]

I believe that the mad head molder from Innova said something about plastic being surprisingly hygroscopic. I also vaguely remember him saying it was wildly variable too.

It's been a while since I read that, somebody better at forum search can probably find the quote.

[Marmoset]

Originally Posted by uncle pennybags

...said something about plastic being surprisingly hygroscopic.

Wow this made my morning!
Someone who knows what hygroscopic is AND spelled it correctly!
thanks

[uncle pennybags]

Originally Posted by Marmoset

Wow this made my morning!
Someone who knows what hygroscopic is AND spelled it correctly!
thanks

I knew the word in my head but had to double check the spelling, 'cause words are hard!

I work in laminate adhesives, so it comes it.