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View Poll Results: Which of these best describes Hole 18 at the Utah Open?
A par 2 where 38% of throws are errors, and 1% of throws are hero throws. 6 25.00%
A par 3 where 24% of throws are errors, and 33% of throws are hero throws. 16 66.67%
A par 4 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 23% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
A par 5 where 37% of throws are hero throws, and 21% are double heroes. 0 0%
A par 6 where 16% of throws are hero throws, and 62% are double heroes. 1 4.17%
Voters: 24. You may not vote on this poll

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  #3121  
Old 07-12-2018, 09:42 PM
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Jukeshoe Jukeshoe is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I'm not sure if this is a digression, or a metaphor for the entire thread.
The Sirens' Song doth lead this thread astray.
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  #3122  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:12 PM
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Should McBeth's recent round be famous as the round where he almost parred the course? With the one error---the one shot that didn't maximize his ability?

And what is the distance at which missed putts are errors? 150'? 200'? At what distance do experts know that it is within their ability to make the shot, if only they execute? The poor announcers are going to need a thesaurus to describe all those errors.

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  #3123  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:13 PM
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The Sirens' Song doth lead this thread astray.
Lash me to the mast---I must hear it!

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  #3124  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:14 PM
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Lash me to the mast---I must hear it!
Perfectly describes my morbid interest in this thread!

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  #3125  
Old 07-12-2018, 10:22 PM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Expected?

One of the abilities experts have---one of the more impressive ones, from my duffer vantage point---is the ability to throw a shot consistently and repeatedly.

The occasional throw that is better than his normal throw is certainly within his abilities, but the fact that most of the time he can't execute it, excludes it from the ability to consistently do it.

So if he can execute a shot 10% of the time, are the other 90% errors?
I never said 10%. I said that a pro has an expectation they can make the shot without getting lucky.

To me this makes more sense than choosing an arbitrary number (80%) that has no justification or logic behind it other than it makes the math come out pretty. If there is more logic to it than this I'm all ears, because I've never heard anything beyond that.
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  #3126  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
I never said 10%. I said that a pro has an expectation they can make the shot without getting lucky.

To me this makes more sense than choosing an arbitrary number (80%) that has no justification or logic behind it other than it makes the math come out pretty. If there is more logic to it than this I'm all ears, because I've never heard anything beyond that.
We have a bit of agreement. I don't believe it can be defined by fixed numbers, either.

I only offer them to try to nail down the concept. Obviously, the worst 1% of shots are errors. We agree that 90% of shots aren't errors. So where's the line. Half? A third?

I could avoid the percentages and use words like "rarely", "often", "most of the time". It's the same thing. I don't know how to identify "errors", or "errorless", since some shots are slightly off, some badly off, some somewhere in between.

Though I'd think if it's a shot a pro hits 10% of the time, he thinks he can hit it without getting lucky. Not that he will, but that he can.

Shots fall all along a spectrum, from heroic or lucky to great to good to average to below average to bad. You're seemingly viewing "errorless" pretty high on that spectrum, and anything below great is an error. I'm viewing it more leniently, that it has to be below average to be an error. Either valid, I guess, though I never think of my average shots, or even good (but not great) as errors.

Which is why I find "errorless" to be an annoying vague term in the definition.

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  #3127  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:22 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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...
I really have no idea what you're getting at. Instead of just picking at flaws that have already been acknowledged, please make a point, take a position, or make a helpful suggestion.

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  #3128  
Old 07-12-2018, 11:57 PM
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beereakfast beereakfast is offline
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Originally Posted by lyleoross View Post
Oh gods, I've never been that witty.
So... A hero shot, like your previous statement, could be described as 'pulling a Homer'?

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  #3129  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:26 AM
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Maybe an over simplistic suggestion, or missing some point made elsewhere, but:

Wouldn't it be easier to call everything a par 3 and redefine the par +4 penalty than try to redefine "par"?
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  #3130  
Old 07-13-2018, 12:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
I really have no idea what you're getting at. Instead of just picking at flaws that have already been acknowledged, please make a point, take a position, or make a helpful suggestion.
I know you don't like discussing the minutiae of how you make the sausage, but as long as you continue to claim that you are somehow calculating par, I'll keep pointing out that you are using your own definition of par to do so. You know this. I've said it before. The post you apparently don't want to directly respond to mostly has to do with the word "errorless" in the par definition and you apparently don't want to discuss what you consider to be an errorless throw and the implications of that term in the par definition.
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