#101  
Old 08-09-2019, 12:57 PM
Geer_Boggles Geer_Boggles is offline
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In response to the original proposal of division changes:

I'm in the ratings based division camp but I feel that women should have their own tier of those ratings based divisions. It's not for divisiveness, it's for parity. Unless we are talking about Paige Pierce or Jennifer Allen, most women don't have the distance of men and should not be forced to compete on that level. And regardless, it's just plain respectful.

I like playing against people better than me and seeing myself improve so I think those ratings divisions should be a broader range like 75 or more points instead of the typical 50. This would deter sandbaggers as it would be a requirement.

The measurement of the ratings upon tournament time would have to be settled though. As others mentioned, ratings change each month a sanctioned tournament has been completed. Maybe a ratings "lock" could be put in place once someone registers for an event so that regardless of changes that person can compete for what they signed up for. For example, someone rated 850 signed up for an event that ranges 800-875. 3 months later it's event time and that person has jumped up to 880 in that time frame, they would still be allowed to compete in the 800-875 division and vice versa.

Also, introductory tournaments for new players or players with a new number who begin competing would need to have a division to themselves in order to establish a semi-stable rating. I would say they either need to play 8-12 sanctioned rounds to establish a baseline before being assigned to a tier or play for a full calendar year whichever happens first. This would take the question that every single new player has ever asked out of the equation (which division should I start in?) and also give them an idea of where they sit and feel comfortable in.
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  #102  
Old 08-09-2019, 01:03 PM
Geer_Boggles Geer_Boggles is offline
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Also as a side note in relation to a couple comments regarding player's packs:

I understand that players have become entitled brats when it comes to players packs but I don't think of them as participation trophies. I think of them as;
A. A way for brands to get their name out there and put their products in people's hands that wouldn't normally buy them off the shelves.
B. A fun incentive to encourage people to keep coming back.

No players I've ever played with has said they only come to tournaments for the player's packs. Everyone comes to compete, regardless of the packs. I like them for the first reason I provided. I get to try new plastic that I normally wouldn't have bought on my own.
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  #103  
Old 08-09-2019, 02:35 PM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by Geer_Boggles View Post
....regardless of the (player) packs. I like them for the first reason I provided. I get to try new plastic that I normally wouldn't have bought on my own.
Nothing wrong with that at all, I just wish the PDGA would mandate we could opt out of player packs in return for a discount on the event fee.

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  #104  
Old 08-09-2019, 02:58 PM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Nothing wrong with that at all, I just wish the PDGA would mandate we could opt out of player packs in return for a discount on the event fee.
Never going to happen, particularly at the levels of PDGA sanctioning where they require tournaments to give a player pack.

Additionally, when tournament directors are supplying player packs by making a bulk purchase of said items (discs, shirts, whatever), no one should be able to tell them they have to allow for players to skip out on paying for them. They're budgeting based on a certain percentage of what they buy going out the door on the day of the tournament. Forcing them to make it optional is only going to make it harder and/or more expensive to source the player pack items (lower quantities = higher cost per item). Besides, if you don't want your player pack item, especially if it is a disc, there's a pretty robust secondary market where you should be able to easily sell it at cost.

All that said, TDs are already allowed to offer a discounted entry fee for which the player foregoes all payout (player pack included) in order to just play for a trophy. Can't hurt to ask your local TD if they're willing to offer such a discount if full price is too high for your taste. They may say no, but that should be their prerogative as a TD. They're the ones putting in the work and in a lot of cases, fronting money to pull the event off.

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  #105  
Old 08-09-2019, 03:50 PM
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JTacoma03 JTacoma03 is offline
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Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
Age- and gender-protected divisions in disc golf recognize inherent biological handicaps in those groups. (The Pro/Am split is a little iffier, being essentially an elective status.)

College football divisions recognize inherent handicaps in the size of schools, and thus ability to compete with larger, better-funded ones. High schools recognize the handicaps of age, and lack of recruiting. Within high schools, there are division championships based on school sizes.

These are all "the best of..." a group that is otherwise limited, in some way.
I hear your argument, but I think it's due to other factors, namely logistics. It would be impossible to schedule a field that large if every school was in the same grouping. Plus, not everybody has the luxury of choosing their school, and it's not contained within a zero-sum system...i.e. there's not a hard cap on the number of schools in a particular set, it varies from place to place.

Contrast that with a disc golf tournament, where you're all playing for the same pot of money, just some people are demanding to play for a side pot. It's a zero sum game - if one player gets into a protected division, that counts towards the total and theoretically takes a spot away from an Open competitor to play for the prize.
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  #106  
Old 08-09-2019, 05:40 PM
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Three Putt Three Putt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTacoma03 View Post
Contrast that with a disc golf tournament, where you're all playing for the same pot of money, just some people are demanding to play for a side pot. It's a zero sum game - if one player gets into a protected division, that counts towards the total and theoretically takes a spot away from an Open competitor to play for the prize.
I was at an event a long time ago where there was a very heated conversation involving the amount of added cash that went to the Masters division as a notable Pro player who was in his late 30's was playing Masters (the age break was 35 then.) This rather notable pro player screamed at a group of us that he built disc golf, if it wasn't for him there wouldn't be any disc golf for us to play and we OWED him a big fat Master's payout.

I'm not sure how prevalent this idea that the older generation (who played for years when the turnouts were small and the payouts were flimsy) were owed something was in the creation of the Master's divisions in disc golf. Age protected competition is pretty common. It was something I heard mentioned back in the day, though.

Now that I'm old and I've spent a lot of years volunteering my time toward disc golf, the idea that anybody owes me anything for that time is laughable. If you want to be monetarily rewarded for your time, do something that pays.


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  #107  
Old 08-09-2019, 09:40 PM
roblee roblee is offline
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I'm surprised that none's mentioned that the PDGA once offered 3 divisions in each amateur age category; Rec, Int, & Adv. I don't know when it started or when it ended. This from October 2001 Big Arms on the Brazos in Lubbock, TX.


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  #108  
Old 08-09-2019, 10:20 PM
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DavidSauls DavidSauls is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roblee View Post
I'm surprised that none's mentioned that the PDGA once offered 3 divisions in each amateur age category; Rec, Int, & Adv. I don't know when it started or when it ended. This from October 2001 Big Arms on the Brazos in Lubbock, TX.
It was actually mentioned a few times, a ways back in this thread, as evidence that this had been tried before, wasn't terribly popular, and only lasted a year or two.
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  #109  
Old 08-10-2019, 07:26 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
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It should be noted that in the days of age-protected divisions in Intermediate and Rec, there were no ratings guidelines for divisions at all. Ratings weren't officially used as part of determining divisions until 2002. I don't think the introduction of ratings breaks and the elimination of those extra age-protected divisions coinciding was accidental.
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  #110  
Old 08-10-2019, 08:39 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
They're budgeting based on a certain percentage of what they buy going out the door on the day of the tournament.
I could see opting out of player packs as something available for a limited time, early in the registration.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
Besides, if you don't want your player pack item, especially if it is a disc, there's a pretty robust secondary market where you should be able to easily sell it at cost.
yah...the irony of player packs, winning merch and then selling it. Turning ams everywhere into unofficial pros. I used to be that guy, I get it. Not a fan of it anymore and I fully believe it stagnates some players into not going pro when it may be easier to "am cash out" instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JC17393 View Post
All that said, TDs are already allowed to offer a discounted entry fee for which the player foregoes all payout (player pack included) in order to just play for a trophy. Can't hurt to ask your local TD if they're willing to offer such a discount if full price is too high for your taste. They may say no, but that should be their prerogative as a TD. They're the ones putting in the work and in a lot of cases, fronting money to pull the event off.
I never knew the PDGA allowed the TD to have this option. So it's clear the PDGA understands the potential for players wanting to opt out in return for lower entry fees. Like I said earlier, I want TDs to make as much money as they can, we need the good TDs to be paid for their time. I just don't see the need to force me to buy something I don't want, in order to further said profits. Instead...bring that merch, discount it and sell the hell out of it during the tournament. You have a captive audience!

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