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Old 10-09-2015, 11:54 PM
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ash81 ash81 is offline
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Default Working from the hit backwards.

I came to the conclusion that I should be working on isolating the hit and creating the power pocket since I now know that while I thought I was getting it right, I was really pulling too early and slipping.

I've seen the Beto videos and was always a little confused because it looks like he's just flinging the disc with his arm, but I'm aware that others have said it leaves things out that the vewer should already know. Apparently Bradley Walker's closed shoulder snap drill covers what the Beto video assumes.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's struggled with this and how they broke through.

For example, I've noticed that my follow through is shallow which is likely throwing off the feeling, but I've seen some slow motion where the player's arm is still so loose after the throw it just hits their backside, hanging relaxed. I definitely don't have this down, and would like to isolate the feeling so that I can get into the power pocket easier and follow through correctly.
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Old 10-10-2015, 12:44 AM
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Read everything on DGR, and threw nothing but putters for awhile.
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:35 AM
RFrance RFrance is offline
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It took me a while to get it through my thick skull to start practicing with the putters and mids which I recently started doing. You'll see a lot of posts about how this helps with correcting flutter or OAT and all of the other things that we do while learning to throw correctly. But what is often over looked is the practical side. If I practice with drivers I can usually only throw about 5 at a time without spending too much time finding them. With putters I have a bucket of 15 that I can get in a 30 foot circle. That is three times the number of throws with the same effort. More than that, it is usually about throw six or seven when something clicks and you go "...let me try that again."
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Old 10-10-2015, 02:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sidewinder22 View Post
Read everything on DGR, and threw nothing but putters for awhile.
That thought crossed my mind. I've been going back there quite a bit lately. Saw a Shawn Clement video and was like, "oh hey, SW22 posts those too...". Then realized it actually is was you. It was a good one though about weight transfer. That's another thing I've been thinking about. Particularly in how to get the the Disc to the right pec (RHBH) and when to push with the back foot. I know I should have my heel down before the pull, but when to push off the back vs where the disc should be at that point gets me a little.
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Old 10-10-2015, 03:28 AM
slowplastic slowplastic is offline
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Don't think about when to push off the foot vs. where the disc should be...that will change based on stance width and step speed. It's best to feel what an efficient weight transfer feels like and then you'll always push into it rather than just drop into it or tip into it. It's like trying to slide across a hardwood floor on your plant foot. You have to push into that foot as it's going to touch the ground...and stay balanced inside of it.

The whole hit back thing is tricky, and it's not instant magic. But it gets you to where I say is ~350' fairly regularly once you get the feel consistent with smooth form. Then the weight transfer and other stuff comes into play for throwing further. Don't feel like you need to start with the right pec drill, for me it was impossible and I still don't know if I could throw that way (and I can throw 350+ standstill easily). I feel like having a more full and fluid reachback helped me get a good tempo/rhythm into the throw (into the right pec and then throw from there).

Anyways, I agree with throwing putters/mids for this as you won't feel like you need to kill the throws, and they will just float out there dead straight when you do it right. Check out this thread I made a while ago, post #6 has diagrams. Try it and see if it works for you, if it doesn't then forget about it and move on to a different way. If something doesn't work then doing the same thing over and over again isn't going to change it. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums...d.php?t=109910

Last edited by slowplastic; 10-10-2015 at 03:30 AM.
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Old 10-10-2015, 09:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowplastic View Post
Don't think about when to push off the foot vs. where the disc should be...that will change based on stance width and step speed. It's best to feel what an efficient weight transfer feels like and then you'll always push into it rather than just drop into it or tip into it. It's like trying to slide across a hardwood floor on your plant foot. You have to push into that foot as it's going to touch the ground...and stay balanced inside of it.

The whole hit back thing is tricky, and it's not instant magic. But it gets you to where I say is ~350' fairly regularly once you get the feel consistent with smooth form. Then the weight transfer and other stuff comes into play for throwing further. Don't feel like you need to start with the right pec drill, for me it was impossible and I still don't know if I could throw that way (and I can throw 350+ standstill easily). I feel like having a more full and fluid reachback helped me get a good tempo/rhythm into the throw (into the right pec and then throw from there).

Anyways, I agree with throwing putters/mids for this as you won't feel like you need to kill the throws, and they will just float out there dead straight when you do it right. Check out this thread I made a while ago, post #6 has diagrams. Try it and see if it works for you, if it doesn't then forget about it and move on to a different way. If something doesn't work then doing the same thing over and over again isn't going to change it. http://www.dgcoursereview.com/forums...d.php?t=109910
Thanks, that helped a lot! Bits and pieces make sense, but it's hard to put together without someone present to teach and correct. That thread sewed together some of the bits I've been struggling with. Did some putter practice and was able to isolate that pressure like your being pushed into a wall and then let it break through after the Disc releases. Or so it feels that way. Ironically I didn't know that feeling until I started working on my sidearm. I'd do a little xstep (only one step on my backhand at this point though) and brace naturally in a way that when it came together my sidearm throws started flying cleaner and further. I was trying to replicate that bracing feel on my backhand and think I'm starting to feel it.

By the end of putter practice they were coming out clean and controlled 90% of the time not to mention pushing the ~280' limit (we have a backstop for shooting targets that I aim for which gps says is 270' +/- 12' from the throw spot).

Thanks again everybody. I hate asking too much since I know the info is out there, but it's a little confusing at times.
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Old 10-13-2015, 05:17 PM
timothy42b timothy42b is offline
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I'm another one who found it confusing. The closed shoulder drill is just as confusing but somehow the video conveys it a little better. I think it's helped me. (I threw a personal best on the course Sunday, mostly because longer drives left me with shorter putts.)

It's not really "from the hit back." It's from the start of the hit.

Have you read any of Bertholy's stuff on positions?
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Old 10-13-2015, 08:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timothy42b View Post
I'm another one who found it confusing. The closed shoulder drill is just as confusing but somehow the video conveys it a little better. I think it's helped me. (I threw a personal best on the course Sunday, mostly because longer drives left me with shorter putts.)

It's not really "from the hit back." It's from the start of the hit.

Have you read any of Bertholy's stuff on positions?
I have not, but intruiged.
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Old 10-13-2015, 10:27 PM
Dr.Smooth Dr.Smooth is offline
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Overwhelmed by info. Very little time and experience you have throwing anything.

Do you have any parallels with other sports?

Is this really your first time trying to figure out where your body is at any given moment in time and space.

Step out into the field young butterfly and push the disc flat against the wind until it flies straight every day for the next thousand days.
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Old 10-14-2015, 05:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ash81 View Post

I've seen the Beto videos and was always a little confused because it looks like he's just flinging the disc with his arm, but I'm aware that others have said it leaves things out that the vewer should already know. Apparently Bradley Walker's closed shoulder snap drill covers what the Beto video assumes.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's struggled with this and how they broke through.

.
Honestly i've never seen anyone have success from just the Hit backwards video, although I'm sure many have. The idea in itself is great but if seen in isolation all i ever see it do is teach people to strongarm.

The video actually has two drills, and doesn't really break them down separately, it also gets some of the set up positions to the x step backwards but anyway... There is the right pec drill and then there is the hit back, they are separate things. I'm not a huge fan of the right pec drill, this for me is where the closed shoulder drill isolates the same idea and makes it a lot easier to produce.

Basically the right pec drill/closed shoulder snap drill is trying to teach you how to leverage the disc/ to throw the back end of the disc/to pound the hammer/to hit it and to come in slow and accelerate through the hit so you hold on all the way through and you pivot the back end of the disc through to the front almost instantaneously. TBH all of HUBS early Heavy Disc stuff breaks this down even better than these two, although I am still a big fan of the closed shoulder snap drill to help people find this feeling.

The second part of the hit back video is the idea of working from the hit back. In order for this to be at all useful, you have to have found the feeling of leveraging the disc/pounding the hammer/pivoting the disc/Hitting it whatever you want to call it. The vast majority of people that watch that video never do this. It can take a very long time to feel this (or if you are lucky it could click immediately) but you will know you have done it when you do, the disc will rocket out of your hand with very little effort and hardly any movement of the arm, it will also come out very clean. I'd personally start further forward of the right pec, move the hand forward slowly with your hand on the outside of the disc for as long as possible (you'll find this pulls your elbow down a line to the target till you're in the nudging a buddy with your elbow position) and just focus on bringing the back end of the disc to the front powerfully (not letting it loosely swing around your grip but actively pulling it through) Do this to a target 10 meters away with as little arm movement as possible and then take it back 10 meters at a time rather than just trying to throw as far as you can, as this will tend to make you tense up and lose the all important looseness. It takes timing, and it can take a lot of repetitions, make sure to follow through. It's also a very easy feeling to lose when you try to hard and bring too much speed in or tense up.

Once you have that feeling, and it can take a long time (Dan breezes past this part in the video as though everyone will get it within seconds of trying) you can then add more and more to the motion whilst still making sure you keep that same feeling. As soon as you lose the feeling go back a step and rework it till you find it again. If you can't find the feeling there go all the way back to the start again.

That is the essence of the hit back. You are trying to originally find the most powerful motion in disc golf and then work more and more of the other stuff we talk about into it - weight transfer/bracing etc. Anything you add though you must make sure it keeps the same "Hit" feeling. Any motion earlier in the action that does not add to that feeling is a waste of effort.

Sidewinder and now slowplastic and others on here talk a lot more about body positioning/balance/control etc. This was always a big miss on DGR as getting control over all those things makes it so much easier to Hit it and to work from the hit backwards and keep on hitting it.

I'm not convinced that the Hit backwards video should ever be given out as a teaching aid to new players or definitely not to be watched in isolation as "the" form video. I would always direct people to the closed shoulder snap drill and hope they didn't get bored of 4 minutes of Bradley talking and then onto Sidewinders drills and Heavy Disc, as I think it gives a much more well rounded view on what goes into a good drive and how to achieve it.

Last edited by rhatton1; 10-14-2015 at 05:55 AM.
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