#91  
Old 08-28-2019, 06:43 PM
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GeoWolf GeoWolf is offline
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Blue Lake Park here in Portland, OR is listed as a par 69 with 5 par 3's, 9 par 4's and 3 par 5's. Mostly open with OB lined fairways.
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  #92  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:22 PM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Originally Posted by Ryan P. View Post
This idea is intriguing. What, in your mind, makes this true? In other words, what differentiates an open par 4 from an open par 5 (other than length) that makes the majority of good, open, multi-shot holes par 4s instead of 5s?
To me, it's the scores.

I looked at 133 holes labeled par 5 in recent events. Based on the scores actually recorded, if these holes had had their pars set for 1000-rated players, 79 of them would have been par 4. On these holes most (54%) of 1000-rated players got scores of 4 or better.

You could also look at length. The average length of those 79 holes was less than 850 feet. An Open player who can throw 400 or 450 feet should not expect to need 5 throws to complete an 850 foot hole.

There are a lot of reasons a true par 4 for Open players could get labeled par 5. Perhaps the tee signs pars were set for amateurs. Perhaps the TD or course designer does not have a pro arm. Perhaps par was set under the old mistaken notion that par includes two putts. Perhaps there was a desire for a par 5 - so the longest hole got the job. Perhaps the course owner wanted it to be listed as a par 72.
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  #93  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:44 PM
Orioles_Lefty Orioles_Lefty is offline
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While both forms of golf are played through the air, their relationships with space are totally different. DG plays through the space whereas ball golf mostly plays over. The big par 3 obstacles in ball golf can be length, bunkers, water, green design, and rough. Same w/ dg + disc golf can offer greater risk on the way to the green and even greater variety in par 3 hole shape. I think ball golf uses so few Par 3s because they limit hole shape horizontally.

DG remains limited here with the assumption of tee shot plus 2 putts bc that’s what ball golf does. No reason to discount Par 3s. I think Iron Hill, for example, would be a better course with, say, 2 more Par 3s.
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  #94  
Old 08-28-2019, 07:44 PM
pearlybakerbest pearlybakerbest is offline
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I don't think it has been mentioned yet, but the black diamond course at emory park in South Wales, NY is par 71. From the golds the ssa from last years fall classic came in at ~70. To be fair, the gold tees are very tight and long on the wooded holes, almost to a poke and pray level on a few, but it is a beautiful course. The tightly wooded front nine incorporates great use of elevation. The back nine opens up to more park style for a great balance between nines (both are still quite demanding). It would be interesting to see what the top pros would do here, but I don't think it has ever been host to anything higher than a B tier.
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  #95  
Old 08-28-2019, 08:32 PM
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scarpfish scarpfish is offline
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Originally Posted by Orioles_Lefty View Post
DG remains limited here with the assumption of tee shot plus 2 putts bc that’s what ball golf does. No reason to discount Par 3s.
We really need to let "that's what ball golf does" go in respect to hole par, because a disc golf hole isn't completed in the same manner a ball golf hole is.

But, I suppose that's for another thread.

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  #96  
Old 08-29-2019, 09:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve West View Post
To me, it's the scores.

I looked at 133 holes labeled par 5 in recent events. Based on the scores actually recorded, if these holes had had their pars set for 1000-rated players, 79 of them would have been par 4. On these holes most (54%) of 1000-rated players got scores of 4 or better.

You could also look at length. The average length of those 79 holes was less than 850 feet. An Open player who can throw 400 or 450 feet should not expect to need 5 throws to complete an 850 foot hole.

There are a lot of reasons a true par 4 for Open players could get labeled par 5. Perhaps the tee signs pars were set for amateurs. Perhaps the TD or course designer does not have a pro arm. Perhaps par was set under the old mistaken notion that par includes two putts. Perhaps there was a desire for a par 5 - so the longest hole got the job. Perhaps the course owner wanted it to be listed as a par 72.
I don't disagree that there are a bunch of par 5s that, for pros, should be listed as a par 4. However, that doesn't mean par 5s are harder to design (aside from needing more land) or can't be designed. It means that they haven't been designed as much.

In keeping with the gist of the thread, are you saying that we should standardize par to a score in the mid 60's? I don't want any sort of standardization. My thoughts and statements have been that we shouldn't have a standard, but that the par should be evenly distributed on courses. Since par isn't currently evenly distributed, I'd like to see a lot more courses with a higher par.
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  #97  
Old 08-29-2019, 11:44 AM
Steve West Steve West is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan P. View Post
I don't disagree that there are a bunch of par 5s that, for pros, should be listed as a par 4. ...
That's the only issue I was addressing.
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  #98  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:47 PM
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Putt for D'oh Putt for D'oh is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orioles_Lefty View Post
While both forms of golf are played through the air, their relationships with space are totally different. DG plays through the space whereas ball golf mostly plays over. The big par 3 obstacles in ball golf can be length, bunkers, water, green design, and rough. Same w/ dg + disc golf can offer greater risk on the way to the green and even greater variety in par 3 hole shape. I think ball golf uses so few Par 3s because they limit hole shape horizontally.

DG remains limited here with the assumption of tee shot plus 2 putts bc that’s what ball golf does. No reason to discount Par 3s. I think Iron Hill, for example, would be a better course with, say, 2 more Par 3s.
The other aspect is the ground play and design of landing zones. The slope and undulations on a fairway are a HUGE part of ball golf hole design. You can take a wide open fairway and without super tight OB, rough that comes into play, and through just elevation changes and very gentle doglegs dictate what is a good and bad landing zone AND make risk reward for trying to bomb one or a placement shot off the tee. This of course is possible with Disc Golf but generally requires more space AND more obstacles. I think it is one of the reason we have the big open courses with all the OB rope for the Pros. Without obvious physical barriers its hard to design a placement landing zone rather than letting the pros rip distance off the tee.

By this same rational however, par 3's in Disc golf can be much more varied and present more and different challenges on the same course compared to ball golf. Use of more extreme elevation changes and ceiling height for starters.

This thread has had me looking around my local courses, most of which are par 54 type. SSE is 8 or 10 down on most and I can not come up with a decent par 5 design on the courses without putting out OB ropes to dictate certain routes into trees. True Par 5's in DG are kinda difficult. Good interesting Par 5's are REALLY hard and take a lot of land. Basically like NW gold 12, take a Blue par 5 through the trees and move the Tee back 350' in the trees.

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  #99  
Old 08-29-2019, 01:57 PM
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Ryan P. Ryan P. is offline
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That's the only issue I was addressing.
cool beans
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  #100  
Old 08-29-2019, 02:00 PM
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Ryan P. Ryan P. is offline
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Originally Posted by Putt for D'oh View Post
The other aspect is the ground play and design of landing zones. The slope and undulations on a fairway are a HUGE part of ball golf hole design. You can take a wide open fairway and without super tight OB, rough that comes into play, and through just elevation changes and very gentle doglegs dictate what is a good and bad landing zone AND make risk reward for trying to bomb one or a placement shot off the tee. This of course is possible with Disc Golf but generally requires more space AND more obstacles. I think it is one of the reason we have the big open courses with all the OB rope for the Pros. Without obvious physical barriers its hard to design a placement landing zone rather than letting the pros rip distance off the tee.

By this same rational however, par 3's in Disc golf can be much more varied and present more and different challenges on the same course compared to ball golf. Use of more extreme elevation changes and ceiling height for starters.

This thread has had me looking around my local courses, most of which are par 54 type. SSE is 8 or 10 down on most and I can not come up with a decent par 5 design on the courses without putting out OB ropes to dictate certain routes into trees. True Par 5's in DG are kinda difficult. Good interesting Par 5's are REALLY hard and take a lot of land. Basically like NW gold 12, take a Blue par 5 through the trees and move the Tee back 350' in the trees.
Yeah, it takes a lot of land for sure to make a good par 5. The woods require less land, so there are certainly a lot more in there.
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