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View Poll Results: Putting is?
Putting is too easy, narrower basket would be nice on challenging courses 84 17.43%
Putting is about right, keep the basket size 383 79.46%
Putting is too hard, Make the baskets bigger 15 3.11%
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  #331  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Rather than messing around with more difficult baskets, I'm thinking you first decide what you want putting to look like and its related stats, then redesign the equipment and rules to achieve that goal. And note, this issue is primarily relevant to play at the top pro level. There's no apparent reason to change the target for all other levels of play unless maybe it's improved to further reduce fluky results with cut-thrus and bounce backs.

The first goal is not really making putting tougher but to increase scoring spread for top pros in the putting process. The implication is that currently, our top players are putting too well that the process doesn't produce scoring separation. In ball golf, putting is so difficult that the threat of 3-putting exists even at the highest levels, even when they are expert at leaving their longer range lags or misses within 5 feet of the cup.

Simply making our putting a little bit tougher will not increase scoring spread but more likely reduce it as has been shown in some narrow chain basket tests in the field. Players that used to go for 40 footers have been laying up instead resulting in more players two-putting whether they are good or just average putters. So to gain more scoring separation, I would say we need to really make putting more difficult from 5 feet, where even the best putters miss 25-33%, so 3-putting is more common. Adding this close putting drama isn't the savior for getting more spectators but may increase the interest a bit more among player viewers.

Some ways to achieve this would be a much longer post. But narrow chain targets do not appear to be enough. And second, is increasing scoring separation enough reason to make a change or are there other goals that should also come into play to make it worthwhile? And reiterating, any of these changes would ONLY BE FOR TOP PRO PLAY. No changes for everyone else.
Inside of 50' only allow a specific size disc to be used -- an Ultimate disc at 150g max weight.
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  #332  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:28 AM
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Several options in our GDT idea bin with alternate discs as a possible part of any solution but maybe not necessary.
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  #333  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Consult20 View Post
Inside of 50' only allow a specific size disc to be used -- an Ultimate disc at 150g max weight.
If this was to happen the chain design would need to change. Mach Is were designed to catch a Frisbee. The current chain design would be more like putting into a wall if lids were used. They would bounce right off those set ups.

I know this is the 2nd time I mentioned Mach Is. I am not suggesting going back to them just using them as an example.
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  #334  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:35 AM
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Several options in our GDT idea bin with alternate discs as a possible part of any solution but maybe not necessary.
On the up side the baskets wouldn't have to change.

The down side is the pros would absolutely hate it.
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  #335  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:38 AM
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Not suggesting the newer chain pattern baskets like Mach X and Prodigy would work well, but the Mach III and Discatchers worked just fine for Super Class when we were doing those events. In fact, a couple players switched to using them as their regular putter it worked so well.
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  #336  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay Dub View Post
If this was to happen the chain design would need to change. Mach Is were designed to catch a Frisbee. The current chain design would be more like putting into a wall if lids were used. They would bounce right off those set ups.

I know this is the 2nd time I mentioned Mach Is. I am not suggesting going back to them just using them as an example.
Right, but that's the idea, 10' putts would not be automatic. You'd have to try to throw into the cage area and just glance off the chains. I hate the idea, but it beats changing basket design.
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  #337  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Consult20 View Post
On the up side the baskets wouldn't have to change.

The down side is the pros would absolutely hate it.
If it's decided various changes should be tested, not necessarily by the PDGA but by higher tier TDs or various Pro Tours, it's unlikely the pros are going to "like" any option because it will be a change. So their opinion isn't as critical when it's others putting up the money. Case in point are the changes made at USDGC over the years. Not all of them were liked in the beginning and some even now. But the pros still come for the payout.
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  #338  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
Not suggesting the newer chain pattern baskets like Mach X and Prodigy would work well, but the Mach III and Discatchers worked just fine for Super Class when we were doing those events. In fact, a couple players switched to using them as their regular putter it worked so well.
A 10 3/4" 150g Ultimate size disc might have a hard time flexing the chains enough on any basket. The 10" deep cage baskets would help though.

Of coutse there would be the issue of the pros all going bald from pulling their hair out.
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  #339  
Old 12-28-2016, 11:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
If it's decided various changes should be tested, not necessarily by the PDGA but by higher tier TDs or various Pro Tours, it's unlikely the pros are going to "like" any option because it will be a change. So their opinion isn't as critical when it's others putting up the money. Case in point are the changes made at USDGC over the years. Not all of them were liked in the beginning and some even now. But the pros still come for the payout.
Fair point, but there examples of pros skipping events no matter the payout. (Eagle skipped Ledgestone last year, for example)

I'm not sure changes that make the sport "less fun" for the pros is going to get the desired results in the long run.
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  #340  
Old 12-28-2016, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Cgkdisc View Post
And second, is increasing scoring separation enough reason to make a change or are there other goals that should also come into play to make it worthwhile? And reiterating, any of these changes would ONLY BE FOR TOP PRO PLAY. No changes for everyone else.
I gather that one reason, perhaps the first reason, advocates give isn't scoring separation, but reducing the number of boring "automatic".

I'm not convinced it's a compelling enough reason.

Nor that it would work. If we shrink the "automatic" range from 20' to 10', we might just see more lay-ups into that 10' circle, and just as many automatic shots as we do now.

But at least the sentiment is understandable. Automatic putts and tap-ins, at whatever distance for whatever skill level, are neither much fun for the player, nor exciting for hypothetical spectators.

Another intriguing reason is to reward precision on drives (short holes) and upshots (long holes). Right now, if one player parks within 5' of the basket, and the other within 20', it's a yawner. It putting were significantly more difficult, there'd be a bigger distinction between those two shots. Much like---God, I hate saying this---shots to the green in golf.
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