#71  
Old 07-07-2019, 01:11 AM
DG_player DG_player is offline
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Is this really true? Any citations for this?
I'm not sure if it's true for a whip, but it's true for a slingshot. When you first draw it back the elastic will feel warm, the longer you wait, some energy will be lost to the surrounding air instead of transferred to the stone as kinetic energy when you release it.

I'm not sure how much our muscles and tendons compare to an elastic band, but if they do at all, coiling them during the throwing motion should result in more elastic rebound than pre-coiling.
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  #72  
Old 07-07-2019, 09:34 AM
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I'm not sure if it's true for a whip, but it's true for a slingshot. When you first draw it back the elastic will feel warm, the longer you wait, some energy will be lost to the surrounding air instead of transferred to the stone
Hmmmmm, you sure about that? I would appreciate a citation for this as well. Under your model the heat energy is converted back into kinetic energy along with the elastic potential energy. Seems dubious to me; by what means is the band converting heat energy into kinetic energy?
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  #73  
Old 07-07-2019, 02:12 PM
UhhNegative UhhNegative is offline
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
I'm not sure if it's true for a whip, but it's true for a slingshot. When you first draw it back the elastic will feel warm, the longer you wait, some energy will be lost to the surrounding air instead of transferred to the stone as kinetic energy when you release it.

I'm not sure how much our muscles and tendons compare to an elastic band, but if they do at all, coiling them during the throwing motion should result in more elastic rebound than pre-coiling.
I think its really just that the pre-coil can't take advantage of the weight of the disc causing lag in the wrist as the arm goes from coiling to uncoiling. It's really hard to see on video, but during the "coil" part of the shot, if your wrist is properly loose, the weight of the disc moving forward will actually pull the wrist into more flexion right before the uncoiling.

And that's why if you try throwing too early with your arm, your hand ends up more on front of the disc which results in less redirection/acceleration.

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Last edited by UhhNegative; 07-07-2019 at 02:15 PM.
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  #74  
Old 07-08-2019, 12:05 AM
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Hmmmmm, you sure about that? I would appreciate a citation for this as well. Under your model the heat energy is converted back into kinetic energy along with the elastic potential energy. Seems dubious to me; by what means is the band converting heat energy into kinetic energy?
You can believe this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v4TEX2erog&t=189s

or google rubber elasticity
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  #75  
Old 07-08-2019, 12:06 AM
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I think its really just that the pre-coil can't take advantage of the weight of the disc causing lag in the wrist as the arm goes from coiling to uncoiling. It's really hard to see on video, but during the "coil" part of the shot, if your wrist is properly loose, the weight of the disc moving forward will actually pull the wrist into more flexion right before the uncoiling.

And that's why if you try throwing too early with your arm, your hand ends up more on front of the disc which results in less redirection/acceleration.
I think that is the case as well, I was more just responding to Sidewinder's statement regarding slingshots.
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  #76  
Old 07-08-2019, 10:51 AM
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
I'm not sure if it's true for a whip, but it's true for a slingshot. When you first draw it back the elastic will feel warm, the longer you wait, some energy will be lost to the surrounding air instead of transferred to the stone as kinetic energy when you release it.
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Originally Posted by DG_player View Post
You can believe this guy:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1v4TEX2erog&t=189s

or google rubber elasticity
I believe the video, and I also believe you are mistaken

When you stretch out a rubber band, some of the potential energy is lost as the rubber band deforms. As you hold a rubber band stretched out, it is continually deforming, and losing its elasticity. In order for this to happen the energy in the system leaks via heat.

Your assertion that the heat is converted back into kinetic energy is wrong. If that were the case, one could simply heat up an elastic band to add to the kinetic energy. You would in fact have the worlds best heat exchange mechanism, and we would have no further use for turbines.

But of course that is not the case. The heat generated is lost forever from that system as soon as it is generated, there is no way to incorporate that back into the system. Instead, what is happening is that there is a continual generation of heat as the band deforms. It is not the loss of the existing heat that causes a loss of potential energy, but the continuous generation of new heat. At some point, the stretched band will be completely deformed and lose all elasticity and in turn will stop generating heat.

I would say this has nothing to do with the disc golf throw. By pre-coiling your arm you are not deforming an elastic band. Your arm, muscles, and tendons are at rest.
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Old 07-08-2019, 10:53 AM
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I think its really just that the pre-coil can't take advantage of the weight of the disc
+1. This is the reason you snap a towel from straight as well; there is more mass to work with on an extended towel. And for the record I snap a towel from a pre-coiled position; the speed of the strike makes up for the reduced force
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  #78  
Old 07-08-2019, 02:47 PM
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sidewinder22 sidewinder22 is offline
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By pre-coiling your arm you are not deforming an elastic band. Your arm, muscles, and tendons are at rest.
If you are pre-coiling then you are tightening your muscles and resisting gravity and lag from the disc's inertia and your arm that would stretch your arm straight/pulled taut. At rest and loose, your arm/disc would hang straight down and pulled taut via gravity.
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  #79  
Old 07-08-2019, 03:25 PM
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If you are pre-coiling then you are tightening your muscles and resisting gravity and lag from the disc's inertia and your arm that would stretch your arm straight/pulled taut. At rest and loose, your arm/disc would hang straight down and pulled taut via gravity.
You are reaching (pun intended). There is no way that the force used to resist gravity is causing your tendons to lose elasticity. And even if it was it would act the exact same way on an extended arm.

Honestly I find your grasp of Newtonian physics to be tenuous. Mine is as well but you are the one proposing to educate here. At this point I am willing to say your idea of "dynamic coiling" is pseudo science until proven otherwise.
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  #80  
Old 07-08-2019, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SonicGuy View Post
"dynamic coiling" is pseudo science until proven otherwise.
It's more commonly referred to as a 'stretch reflex' and it's a very real term (just used a lot more in resistance training than anything else)

also known as stretch-shortening cycle

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Last edited by VictorB; 07-08-2019 at 04:09 PM.
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