#351  
Old 08-07-2019, 08:12 AM
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Arisugawa Arisugawa is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gingerandhoney View Post
Yes, I got lost in subclauses.
A would only be allowed to play ingender-protected divisions provided their T levels are low enough (despite not medically altering it).
Most likely though, they'd be "stuck" playing in mixed divisions
This is what I thought you meant. Obviously, if person A has any of the situations you referenced (hermaphrodite, difference in sexual development, hyperandrogenous, or karyotype people with male external features but female internal featured) that would cause the testosterone levels to fall within the acceptable range, the situation changes.
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  #352  
Old 08-07-2019, 04:00 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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All that stuff about person A is not officially in the rules, so it COULD actually be considered 'not allowed', but the spirit of the guideline SHOULD allow for that.
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  #353  
Old 08-07-2019, 09:55 PM
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joshuajames joshuajames is offline
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Hey gingerandhoney, thanks for the disc trade at AM Worlds! Hope that Judge treats you well.
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  #354  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:21 PM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by joshuajames View Post
Hey gingerandhoney, thanks for the disc trade at AM Worlds! Hope that Judge treats you well.
Hi Joshua
I don't throw either the M3-x or the Judge, but I could make you happy with the trade, so I did. And I hope to make someone happy with the Judge. Thank you.

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  #355  
Old 08-07-2019, 10:49 PM
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How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?
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  #356  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:04 PM
Jsmithey Jsmithey is offline
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Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?
These occurrences are fairly rare and overlap that with the already minuscule percentage of trans people playing disc golf and it's near nil chances of that happening, but I would assume that they would keep any titles and ratings but once they reach the current maximum of 10nmol/l they would most certainly have to move back to mixed division or on the flip side as a trans man if they fell back below the limit I assume they would be allowed back in gender protected divisions. Personally I don't think this is a scenario we'll have to ever face in the Disc Golf world but those would be my assumptions based on current rulings.
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  #357  
Old 08-07-2019, 11:28 PM
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Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?
There's two ways for a transgender woman to be eligible to compete in the gender-protected divisions, one involves a period of hormone replacement therapy followed by an ongoing adherence to that therapy, and the other involves reassignment surgery (which invariably includes the removal of the gonads).

In the first case, let's assume the de-transitioning player (who has not had permanent surgery) also discontinues the use of hormone therapy, which is a logical assumption. They would no longer be eligible to participate in the gender-protected divisions, as is spelled out in the policy in section C, subsection 1, paragraphs C and E. Ongoing therapy is necessary to suppress and to continue to suppress the gonads, to stop them secreting testosterone. If the therapy is discontinued, the testes resume function (albeit possibly at a diminished level, but still probably too well to continue to compete).

Excerpt:

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C. Transgender – Male to Female

Players who were assigned male gender at birth and are taking hormone replacement therapy and/or testosterone suppression medication related to gender transition are eligible to compete in a gender protected division at a PDGA event only if one of the following sets of criteria are met:

1. Transgender Hormone Therapy

A. The player has been taking continuous hormone therapy under medical supervision for a period of at least 12 months before competing in a gender protected division; and
B. The player’s total testosterone level in serum has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to the PDGA event, demonstrated by at least three blood tests throughout this time interval; and
C. The player’s total testosterone level in serum must continue to remain below 10 nmol/L in the future. If the player ceases hormone treatment they are no longer eligible to compete in gender protected divisions and must inform the PDGA by submission of a completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee; and
D. Submission by the player or their physician of the completed PDGA Gender Reclassification Form to the PDGA Medical Committee for evaluation; and
E. The player is required to inform the PDGA if hormone treatment is suspended.
(Italics added for emphasis.)

The latter case for eligibility (the surgery route) is spelled out in subsection 2. Someone who has surgical reassignment and then de-transitions may or may not necessarily become ineligible for the gender-protected division, as they no longer possess testes which secrete testosterone, so their levels of testosterone will not go up without some outside assistance.

If they "socially" de-transition, but remain chemically and anatomically female, it certainly appears that they would continue to be eligible for the gender-protected division, at least in terms of not enjoying the competitive advantages of having testosterone in the bloodstream, but as they would be presenting and living as male in every other aspect of their life, it seems unlikely that they would wish to continue playing in the company of women. It would be mad awkward, to say the least.

If they fully de-transition and seek testosterone replacement, (typically administered by injection into a smooth muscle), they would instantly lose their eligibility for the gender-protected division, as they are now essentially transitioning from female to male, and that's covered in section B.

Excerpt:

Quote:
1. Players who were assigned female gender under the criteria detailed above and who are taking hormone treatments to increase testosterone levels are no longer eligible to compete in gender protected divisions.

Source: https://www.pdga.com/medical/gender-...ibility-policy

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Last edited by Nova P; 08-07-2019 at 11:32 PM. Reason: clarity
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  #358  
Old 08-08-2019, 12:54 AM
DiscFifty DiscFifty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?
Trying to be sensitive here, but that particular person, I'm guessing, would have issues way more pressing in life than to worry about disc golf at that point.

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  #359  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:27 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Originally Posted by DiscFifty View Post
Trying to be sensitive here, but that particular person, I'm guessing, would have issues way more pressing in life than to worry about disc golf at that point.
Correct. Especially if and when that person had used the surgical method of testosterone removal.
If that person were to de-transition, and actively quit taking estrogen, it would leave the body rudderless, so to speak.
No more female hormones added chemically, and no ability to create the make counterpart.

But I guess you, instead, refer to mental well-being, which is indeed way too sensitive an area to even go there.

Last edited by gingerandhoney; 08-08-2019 at 02:31 AM.
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  #360  
Old 08-08-2019, 02:31 AM
gingerandhoney gingerandhoney is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrotherDave View Post
How does the PDGA/IOC policy affect a trans woman that decides to de-transition after playing in female protected divisions?
If the person were to de-transition after surgery, they would remain eligible, unless they'd chemically add testosterone to their body.
If the person would de-transition by no longer taking testosterone blockers, the oerson would lose eligibility as soon as their testosterone levels, were above 10nmol/l again
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