#1  
Old 09-08-2019, 12:01 PM
AnttiM AnttiM is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 15
Niced 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default May a playing official enforce a foot fault?

801.02.F
Quote:
An Official may call or confirm a rule violation by any player. An Official's call does not need to be confirmed to be enforced. An Official who is playing may not act as an Official for players who are in their division.
The following happened in a C-tier event: the TD was playing in a mixed group, and called a stance violation for a player who was in another division. Since no one confirmed the foot fault, the player did not receive a penalty. But should the player have been given the penalty nevertheless, since the rule violation was called by the TD, and they were not playing in the same division?
Sponsored Links
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 09-08-2019, 06:28 PM
DavidSauls's Avatar
DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newberry, SC
Years Playing: 24.3
Courses Played: 125
Posts: 15,093
Niced 3,287 Times in 1,454 Posts
Default

I'd think he could. But it's a little unfair for those 1 or 2 players, to have an official tagging along in their group, when no one else in their division has the same level of oversight.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 09-09-2019, 08:31 AM
AnttiM AnttiM is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 15
Niced 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DavidSauls View Post
I'd think he could. But it's a little unfair for those 1 or 2 players, to have an official tagging along in their group, when no one else in their division has the same level of oversight.
So is it within the official's discretion whether or not to enforce their own calls?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:01 AM
Future_Primitive's Avatar
Future_Primitive Future_Primitive is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Michigan
Years Playing: 7.4
Courses Played: 131
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,543
Niced 656 Times in 298 Posts
Default

Are you asking about the TD specifically or certified officials in general? A lot of players are certified officials but that doesnt give their calls any more importance than other players on the card. It just means they should know the rules better or at least as good as anyone else on the card.

I believe what David is saying is it would be unfair for those playing on the card with the TD to be subject to TD only rule calls. Why should all the other cards in the tournament require two players to call the foot fault while this lone card they can be called by one person, the TD? Yes the TD has the power to enforce rules to the best of their ability without being seconded but this would be unfair if they are also playing in the event. Sounds like the TD was trying to act more as a player in the event rather than the TD of the event. I dont have a problem with this, keeps it fair for all the cards playing by the same set of rules.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:10 AM
kenjiac's Avatar
kenjiac kenjiac is offline
Double Eagle Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Colonie NY
Years Playing: 12.2
Courses Played: 106
Throwing Style: RHBH
Posts: 1,035
Niced 199 Times in 110 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future_Primitive View Post
Are you asking about the TD specifically or certified officials in general? A lot of players are certified officials but that doesnt give their calls any more importance than other players on the card. It just means they should know the rules better or at least as good as anyone else on the card.

I believe what David is saying is it would be unfair for those playing on the card with the TD to be subject to TD only rule calls. Why should all the other cards in the tournament require two players to call the foot fault while this lone card they can be called by one person, the TD? Yes the TD has the power to enforce rules to the best of their ability without being seconded but this would be unfair if they are also playing in the event. Sounds like the TD was trying to act more as a player in the event rather than the TD of the event. I dont have a problem with this, keeps it fair for all the cards playing by the same set of rules.
Being a certified official is different than being an Official for an event. A TD can name other certified officials Officials for an event. I believe he is referring to an Official or TD for an event could they enforce a non 2nd call and the answer I believe is yes but they shouldn't IMHO unless they are not playing. If they are calling a fault as any other player on a card should they should receive a 2nd if necessary before the call is counted. Just like you stated they are acting like a player while playing.

Niced: (1)
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:15 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: spotsylvania, va
Years Playing: 24.4
Courses Played: 94
Posts: 6,526
Niced 1,840 Times in 787 Posts
Default

Does being a player over-ride a tournament official's status as a tournament official? Pretty sure the rulebook does not address this in which case I would say they can make the call. It is clear about them not being able to officiate in their own division so I would think that sort of states that they may officiate on other divisions by default.

As for the concept that players on that card are being held to a higher standard than others in the event- I don't really buy it. Play within the rules and the point is irrelevant.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:16 AM
biscoe biscoe is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: spotsylvania, va
Years Playing: 24.4
Courses Played: 94
Posts: 6,526
Niced 1,840 Times in 787 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kenjiac View Post
If they are calling a fault as any other player on a card should they should receive a 2nd if necessary before the call is counted. Just like you stated they are acting like a player while playing.
While i agree with this philosophically I don't think the rules as currently written support it.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:34 AM
JC17393 JC17393 is offline
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Years Playing: 21.8
Courses Played: 150
Throwing Style: LHBH
Posts: 7,738
Niced 3,546 Times in 1,485 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiM View Post
801.02.F


The following happened in a C-tier event: the TD was playing in a mixed group, and called a stance violation for a player who was in another division. Since no one confirmed the foot fault, the player did not receive a penalty. But should the player have been given the penalty nevertheless, since the rule violation was called by the TD, and they were not playing in the same division?
The potential for this situation is exactly why the rule allowing mixed groups in C-tier events is a bad idea. If players are grouped with their divisional peers in every round, it is impossible for a TD or other tournament official to overrule the group or otherwise abuse their authority.

Sometimes the numbers force mixed groups and that's one thing. Stupid to consciously court enforcement inequities in every group on the course.

Niced: (2)
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:43 AM
AnttiM AnttiM is offline
Newbie
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 15
Niced 5 Times in 2 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Future_Primitive View Post
Are you asking about the TD specifically or certified officials in general?
By an official I meant a tournament official for the event (i.e. either the tournament director, those certified officials that have been designated by the TD, or a designated PDGA marshal).
Reply With Quote
 

  #10  
Old 09-09-2019, 09:47 AM
DavidSauls's Avatar
DavidSauls DavidSauls is online now
* Ace Member *
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Newberry, SC
Years Playing: 24.3
Courses Played: 125
Posts: 15,093
Niced 3,287 Times in 1,454 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnttiM View Post
So is it within the official's discretion whether or not to enforce their own calls?
I don't know. I was thinking of what would be fair, not what the rules specify.

Assuming the Official is not the TD, can the TD specify the scope of the official's duties? Can he say, "Joe Blow is an Official for this, but not an Official for that?" If so, can the latter be, "...for the group he's playing with"?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Foot Fault 2019 jeffboi Rules Questions & Discussion 151 08-17-2019 03:47 PM
Is this a foot fault? chowee21 Rules Questions & Discussion 21 02-05-2017 11:16 PM
Intentional Foot Fault esdubya General Disc Golf Chat 195 09-07-2013 10:52 PM
Foot fault? Big Weekend Rules Questions & Discussion 12 05-30-2013 09:41 AM
Is this a Foot Fault? dashiellx Rules Questions & Discussion 170 05-03-2013 12:51 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.10
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.