#51  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:44 AM
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You need to get your heels up. Your toes are above your heel in the stride, you can't crush the can like that. Your weight moves/shifts with the heels trading up/down positions. You need to plant on toes first and fall to the heel as your rear heel is driven forward/up from rear toes/instep.

One of the more difficult moves that Simon does is how he strides more circular into the plant and you are making the misinterpretation I demo below. You are trying to stagger your stance too closed by striding/swaying to the left, instead of striding to the right and going inside-out from creating internal torque.




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  #52  
Old 06-11-2019, 10:42 AM
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So I must be seeing things then that aren't happening in all the players throws? This screen shot below and most of all the others I keep seeing, clearly show the throwers foot has not only touched down on the toe, but then planted the entire foot to the ground, heel and all. Then they start the forward throw. Meaning their weight is now on their front leg. Simon's back foot toe is barely touching the ground at this point, which means his weight is on his front leg. And the disc has still not started forward. It has just reached it's farthest point behind him, and then immediately starts into the forward part of the throw. So how is that not exactly what I just said? Am I missing something? And then can you explain the importance of all these sequence of events? What order should they be happening in, but WAY more importantly, WHY does it matter that they happen in said sequence. I see what is happening, I just don't know why they are doing certain things in a certain order, which is much more important.

You can clearly see that his toe and heel have come down completely onto the ground, and THEN he starts the forward part of his swing. The disc is still going back leading up to this moment, then right when his heel touches down, his arm begins to move forward.


Also, I'm really confused by this still shot of that video above. That guy on the left is fairly identical to Simon in a lot of ways. It's only the lower half that looks bad. The guy on the left has closed shoulders and big angle in his arm, just like Simon. Simon just happens to have the disc back a little farther in that screen shot, which could be a million reasons why (angle of the camera, the point the video is being stopped in the swing to take the shot, etc). The guy on the left has tons of lag with his disc, it's way behind him. I have no idea what it means in the markup where it says his front shoulder is jammed up? It looks closed to me, which is a good thing? Right? And then the guy on the left looks much more balanced and centered, where as Simon looks like he's tipping over the front with his shoulders aiming down (which once again could just be due to the camera angle, or he could just be throwing the disc into the ground, I don't know. I've never seen anyone have their shoulders tilted down like that, it's very odd). So the upper body, looks just about the same as Simon and maybe better in a few aspects. So can you explain all of that to me, I'm totally not understanding what is wrong with the guy on the left as far as his upper body is concerned. I can clearly see his lower body is not in an athletic weight on his right leg position, but the upper bodies look almost identical.


And then on to your reply about my weight being more on my toes then my heels. I know that I'm not putting my weight on my toes. But I am throwing from a stand still or with a medium step. No x step. So I'm not walking or jogging up to the throw. If I was, I would be more on my toes. So can you explain why that matters, to be more on my toes, even from a standstill? I see in your backhand throws, you're flat on your foot at certain parts of the throw. Can you please explain how that is ok, or what you are doing differently than I am. And more importantly why does it matter? Will I start throwing 300-350' if I have my weight more on my frpnt toes instead of my heel? I feel like that is a minor issue, not a major one? But I could be wrong, since I am not seeming to catch on to the disc golf throw as quickly as I thought I would, haha.

I appreciate your tips and I've been learning a few more things from your videos, but still just not getting the key pts to throw. What really is the key to throwing it far with ease?
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  #53  
Old 06-11-2019, 02:16 PM
Coreymill Coreymill is offline
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Originally Posted by SuperWookie View Post
only just before the hit does he have all his weight on his entire plant foot.
'Just before the hit' would be a position where the disc is as close to your body/chest as it ever is during the throw (right before arm extension and disc moving away from body and ejecting).

So, your previous statement makes is sound as you are saying he doesn't get onto his plant until the disc is at center chest ... not at full reachback as you are saying in your new post.
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Old 06-11-2019, 03:38 PM
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'Just before the hit' would be a position where the disc is as close to your body/chest as it ever is during the throw (right before arm extension and disc moving away from body and ejecting).

So, your previous statement makes is sound as you are saying he doesn't get onto his plant until the disc is at center chest ... not at full reachback as you are saying in your new post.
Sorry, must be semantics. I'm saying, in both posts, that Simon has his foot completely flat on the ground. His back foot is off the ground with only the toe barely touching. So meaning, his weight is basically on his front leg? Right? Then at that point is when he begins his forward part of the throw. Meaning, his arm and all of his body start lateral moving forward. So that would mean, that you don't start the shift forward with your hips and body and arm until you have planted and your weight is on your front foot? Correct?

I'm just trying to figure out the sequence of events, so I can try and work on this. And any help or advice is appreciated. Specifically related to my questions I laid out? Thanks
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  #55  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:04 PM
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Also, I'm really confused by this still shot of that video above. That guy on the left is fairly identical to Simon in a lot of ways. It's only the lower half that looks bad. The guy on the left has closed shoulders and big angle in his arm, just like Simon. Simon just happens to have the disc back a little farther in that screen shot, which could be a million reasons why (angle of the camera, the point the video is being stopped in the swing to take the shot, etc). The guy on the left has tons of lag with his disc, it's way behind him. I have no idea what it means in the markup where it says his front shoulder is jammed up? It looks closed to me, which is a good thing? Right? And then the guy on the left looks much more balanced and centered, where as Simon looks like he's tipping over the front with his shoulders aiming down (which once again could just be due to the camera angle, or he could just be throwing the disc into the ground, I don't know. I've never seen anyone have their shoulders tilted down like that, it's very odd). So the upper body, looks just about the same as Simon and maybe better in a few aspects. So can you explain all of that to me, I'm totally not understanding what is wrong with the guy on the left as far as his upper body is concerned. I can clearly see his lower body is not in an athletic weight on his right leg position, but the upper bodies look almost identical.
Some of the differences are hard to see from the camera angle and looking at a static image of a dynamic motion can be deceiving, i.e. you look at a skier in a turn and the static image says they aren't balanced because they are leaning over to the inside, when in fact they are in perfect dynamic balance to the G-forces being experienced by the athlete. The player on the left is hugging himself with a narrower upper arm angle and using his arm bring the elbow/disc forward into the body before his rear foot deweights, and his disc is already over the rear knee, this is the opposite of lag. The front shoulder is higher than the left shoulder and not free to swing forward like Simon's front shoulder swinging more forward like a pendulum.

The difference below is that Marc Jarvis has allowed his torso to turn or release thru with the G-forces being produced and he is counter weighted/balanced with the rear leg/arm going behind the front leg. The skier wants to actually reverse direction so he keeps his counterweight/balance to the reverse direction and rear foot in front of the lead.

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Old 06-11-2019, 05:19 PM
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And then can you explain the importance of all these sequence of events? What order should they be happening in, but WAY more importantly, WHY does it matter that they happen in said sequence. I see what is happening, I just don't know why they are doing certain things in a certain order, which is much more important.
I agree with what you are saying there. I would recommend watching the baseball videos in the Kinetic Sequence thread especially the Whip Effect to the explain the sequence and the why.

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Old 06-11-2019, 05:51 PM
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And then on to your reply about my weight being more on my toes then my heels. I know that I'm not putting my weight on my toes. But I am throwing from a stand still or with a medium step. No x step. So I'm not walking or jogging up to the throw. If I was, I would be more on my toes. So can you explain why that matters, to be more on my toes, even from a standstill? I see in your backhand throws, you're flat on your foot at certain parts of the throw. Can you please explain how that is ok, or what you are doing differently than I am. And more importantly why does it matter? Will I start throwing 300-350' if I have my weight more on my frpnt toes instead of my heel? I feel like that is a minor issue, not a major one? But I could be wrong, since I am not seeming to catch on to the disc golf throw as quickly as I thought I would, haha.
I was specifically talking about your right foot as it strides forward and plants. Your toes are higher than your heel and land flat footed/heel first. That means you aren't engaging your foot or calf or butt muscles. You will note below how I'm landing toes first, and maybe hard to see but my rear heel is deweighted. Also note how you have strided over to the left into a more staggered closed stance with the front foot turned more open, while I'm striding straight inline to target with the front foot turned back more closed and allowing a much longer backswing.

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  #58  
Old 06-11-2019, 05:52 PM
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Some of the differences are hard to see from the camera angle and looking at a static image of a dynamic motion can be deceiving, i.e. you look at a skier in a turn and the static image says they aren't balanced because they are leaning over to the inside, when in fact they are in perfect dynamic balance to the G-forces being experienced by the athlete. The player on the left is hugging himself with a narrower upper arm angle and using his arm bring the elbow/disc forward into the body before his rear foot deweights, and his disc is already over the rear knee, this is the opposite of lag. The front shoulder is higher than the left shoulder and not free to swing forward like Simon's front shoulder swinging more forward like a pendulum.

The difference below is that Marc Jarvis has allowed his torso to turn or release thru with the G-forces being produced and he is counter weighted/balanced with the rear leg/arm going behind the front leg. The skier wants to actually reverse direction so he keeps his counterweight/balance to the reverse direction and rear foot in front of the lead.
So when you say he's hugging himself, I'm not entirely sure what that entails. But I'll take a crack at it. The guy on the left, and myself, are keeping the bicep/tricep part of our arm (the upper arm?) too close to our bodies because we start the swing with our arm too soon? And I need to somehow keep my upper arm/elbow out in front more? How do I do that? Will turning more in my back swing sort of auto correct the hugging and the collapsing of the upper arm into my chest? Or is there something else I need to work on in order to get a larger upper arm angle for the majority of the throw? I see Simon keeps his arm bent literally 95% of the throw or more. He holds the disc in his stomach area with his elbow out in front, then he shifts his weight back, then he turns, and even when he's turning, he still keeps the disc close to his stomach, but with his elbow out front. Then at the last second, right when his toe and then heels touches down on his plant leg, that is when his arm is extended all the way back. But then just as quickly, it comes back in. So I get confused and not sure how to accomplish all this. I feel like everyone wants me to keep the disc close to my body, but I'm not sure how to do that AND keep my upper arm at a wide angle for the majority of the throw.

My next question directly ties into this one. I keep reading more and more about how I need to brace into the leg before I even start the pull. Correct? And then here you mention it above. So obviously it's important. So what am I supposed to be doing with my body until I move my arm/disc forward? I obviously have to get my weight forward to throw it far, so what is the sequence of weight shifting before I even start pulling with my arm? And are any parts of my body turning before I start to pull with my arm? And am I turning any body parts while I'm near the actual hit/release point of the disc? I feel like I keep reading to throw the disc out and straight away from my body. But then I'm also supposed to be turning my body. So I don't see how they mesh. It's very confusing.

Also, I read a few posts by either you or HUB today that once again got me thinking more about some stuff I hadn't thought about before that may be critical. This idea of transferring your weight into the braced leg, then starting the forward part of the swing with the upper body. And one of you or both of you said something like: think of it like the lower body is so braced on the front leg that not only could you play tug of war right at that moment with someone in front of you, but that the upper body/disc almost feels like it's hitting a wall and the braced leg rips the disc out of your hand. It's like your arm wants to keep going forward, but the lower body is so braced, that once you start whipping the disc through, it almost feels like it hits a wall and gets pulled out of your hand. Does that sound about right? And can you go into more detail about that feeling and how I can work on doing that? I really feel like this might be a HUGE part of the distance equation. I can literally feel it and see it in my head, I just can't do it right now, because I don't know how. I can do it with a baseball/softball bat, golf club, or tennis racket, but that is because they weigh a lot more and it's super easy to feel the head weight. In disc golf, it's NOT easy.

Same thing goes for that swim move Simon does with his plant leg. I saw that weeks ago before anyone pointed it out to me, and I was going to ask about it, because once again, from tons of previous sports, I can sense and feel it in my mind, why he is doing that. It's delaying the movement forward just a tad longer to build up even more momentum to REALLY rip on the disc. And it's not something I want to worry about right now, but maybe down the road work on adding is I totally can understand why he does and can see and feel it.

And it sounds like I need to be fully weighted onto my plant foot/leg before I even think of bringing my arm/upper body forward? So how would I work on this? What parts of my body do I want to move to initiate the forward part of the throw, ONCE my plant leg is down and my weight is off my back foot? I know WHAT I need to do, I'm having a hard time comprehending HOW to do some of these things as they are not natural. The only thing in golf that ever threw me off and was hard to get was the lag in the swing. Once I was shown that, and understood why I needed to do it, it was NOT easy to learn it. It felt SUPER awkward and it took months of everyday practice until I finally got it. And I feel like there are a few things in this Disc Golf throw that are causing me the same roadblocks.

Going to watch those videos you posted for me over the next few days and try to digest what their trying to teach me so that Friday when I go out, I can work on them. Tonight, I'm just working on getting MUCH farther turned behind the shot with my shoulders, planting down on my toes before my heel, and trying to keep my arm on plane throughout the swing. Thanks for now
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Old 06-11-2019, 05:56 PM
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I was specifically talking about your right foot as it strides forward and plants. Your toes are higher than your heel and land flat footed/heel first. That means you aren't engaging your foot or calf or butt muscles. You will note below how I'm landing toes first, and maybe hard to see but my rear heel is deweighted. Also note how you have strided over to the left into a more staggered closed stance with the front foot turned more open, while I'm striding straight inline to target with the front foot turned back more closed and allowing a much longer backswing.

I totally see what you are talking about here, and I know I'm doing it, haha. It's just very hard to NOT do this right now. But... I will work on this tonight for sure! Thanks
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Old 06-11-2019, 06:18 PM
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So when you say he's hugging himself, I'm not entirely sure what that entails. But I'll take a crack at it. The guy on the left, and myself, are keeping the bicep/tricep part of our arm (the upper arm?) too close to our bodies because we start the swing with our arm too soon? And I need to somehow keep my upper arm/elbow out in front more? How do I do that? Will turning more in my back swing sort of auto correct the hugging and the collapsing of the upper arm into my chest? Or is there something else I need to work on in order to get a larger upper arm angle for the majority of the throw? I see Simon keeps his arm bent literally 95% of the throw or more. He holds the disc in his stomach area with his elbow out in front, then he shifts his weight back, then he turns, and even when he's turning, he still keeps the disc close to his stomach, but with his elbow out front. Then at the last second, right when his toe and then heels touches down on his plant leg, that is when his arm is extended all the way back. But then just as quickly, it comes back in. So I get confused and not sure how to accomplish all this. I feel like everyone wants me to keep the disc close to my body, but I'm not sure how to do that AND keep my upper arm at a wide angle for the majority of the throw.

My next question directly ties into this one. I keep reading more and more about how I need to brace into the leg before I even start the pull. Correct? And then here you mention it above. So obviously it's important. So what am I supposed to be doing with my body until I move my arm/disc forward? I obviously have to get my weight forward to throw it far, so what is the sequence of weight shifting before I even start pulling with my arm? And are any parts of my body turning before I start to pull with my arm? And am I turning any body parts while I'm near the actual hit/release point of the disc? I feel like I keep reading to throw the disc out and straight away from my body. But then I'm also supposed to be turning my body. So I don't see how they mesh. It's very confusing.

Also, I read a few posts by either you or HUB today that once again got me thinking more about some stuff I hadn't thought about before that may be critical. This idea of transferring your weight into the braced leg, then starting the forward part of the swing with the upper body. And one of you or both of you said something like: think of it like the lower body is so braced on the front leg that not only could you play tug of war right at that moment with someone in front of you, but that the upper body/disc almost feels like it's hitting a wall and the braced leg rips the disc out of your hand. It's like your arm wants to keep going forward, but the lower body is so braced, that once you start whipping the disc through, it almost feels like it hits a wall and gets pulled out of your hand. Does that sound about right? And can you go into more detail about that feeling and how I can work on doing that? I really feel like this might be a HUGE part of the distance equation. I can literally feel it and see it in my head, I just can't do it right now, because I don't know how. I can do it with a baseball/softball bat, golf club, or tennis racket, but that is because they weigh a lot more and it's super easy to feel the head weight. In disc golf, it's NOT easy.

Same thing goes for that swim move Simon does with his plant leg. I saw that weeks ago before anyone pointed it out to me, and I was going to ask about it, because once again, from tons of previous sports, I can sense and feel it in my mind, why he is doing that. It's delaying the movement forward just a tad longer to build up even more momentum to REALLY rip on the disc. And it's not something I want to worry about right now, but maybe down the road work on adding is I totally can understand why he does and can see and feel it.

And it sounds like I need to be fully weighted onto my plant foot/leg before I even think of bringing my arm/upper body forward? So how would I work on this? What parts of my body do I want to move to initiate the forward part of the throw, ONCE my plant leg is down and my weight is off my back foot? I know WHAT I need to do, I'm having a hard time comprehending HOW to do some of these things as they are not natural. The only thing in golf that ever threw me off and was hard to get was the lag in the swing. Once I was shown that, and understood why I needed to do it, it was NOT easy to learn it. It felt SUPER awkward and it took months of everyday practice until I finally got it. And I feel like there are a few things in this Disc Golf throw that are causing me the same roadblocks.

Going to watch those videos you posted for me over the next few days and try to digest what their trying to teach me so that Friday when I go out, I can work on them. Tonight, I'm just working on getting MUCH farther turned behind the shot with my shoulders, planting down on my toes before my heel, and trying to keep my arm on plane throughout the swing. Thanks for now
I agree it's much easier to feel with a heavier object and you need to pretend the disc is that heavy and move your body/arm the same way together. With a disc/lighter object the tendency is to try and go as fast as possible and spin the body out of leverage.

It's much easier to think/feel about this in terms of fencing or slashing thru with the disc or the Olympic Hammer Throw with one arm and just allowing the elbow to hinge for a double pendulum. You basically just want the lower arm/disc to bend inward to your center and then release/whip out away from your center. If you try to rotate your body too fast without the upper arm connected to the shoulders, you will hug yourself and end up with too much slack and the lower arm/disc get caught behind the left shoulder rotation and can't swing the disc thru your center.

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